Knockhill

[burfield17]

I think that they should of kept Knockhill on the TOCA calender, it is one of the most exiting tracks in the UK. Although, i may change my mind once i see rockingham in action, as i have never seen it bein used before!!!

[John]

We've had this discussion before and I totally agree with you. I think its shocking that they removed Knockhill. Its true that it didnt make money (or as much money as others) but its the only place that people who live north of me can easily get to. Now the most northerly track is Croft which is in Yorkshire. From a TV point of view it gave good racing as well.

Also I dont see why Mondello is on the calendar when its not even part of Britain (note British Touring Car Championship) - it would be good to have extra rounds in addition to the home circuits, but not instead of them.

As we only have 10 events again this year I dont see why it is not possible to add Rockingham to last years 10 rather than have it replace one of them. 10 rounds is nowhere near enough, and this shows by the fact there are huge gaps between rounds now rather than one every 2 weeks.

Hopefully in the future the calander will expand again, and make use of Knockhill.

:)

[burfield17]

i didnt realise that there was such a big gap between races, there is no reason why there should be such a gap, the WRC can get around the world in time for the next rally in 2 weeks, so why cant they get around the UK and add some rounds into the calender

[John]

I just seem to recall last season there was a big gap before the final round at Donington (although I might be mistaken).

Having fewer races must mean either the season starts later, finishes sooner, is more spread out, or is a combination of this though,

[Alfa Fan]

Originally posted by John
I just seem to recall last season there was a big gap before the final round at Donington (although I might be mistaken).

Having fewer races must mean either the season starts later, finishes sooner, is more spread out, or is a combination of this though,

There was, the biggest gap of the season, 4 long, long, long weeks!! :D

[Les]

well I would rather have the season spread out with plenty of time for cars to be fixed than a season of just 20 weeks.

[John]

The problem with a 4week gap before the final race though is that if the title had been decided at Brands then many people who just watched the series on TV casually might have lost interest by the time the final race was shown because they knew who had won. Obviously this wouldnt affect the loyal supporters but as the series is trying to get new fans it might be worth considering.

[Claw]

With only 10 race meetings this year, I have the feeling Toca wanna string it out, so it lasts from April to September.

Anyway back to Knockhill, yup they should have kept it!

[lauz]

would it not be a better idea to have only one meeting at brands hatch and have a meeting at knockhill then the championship will visit a different track at each meeting.

[Peter]

The BTCC did not drop Knockhill, it was the other waay round- the race was poorly supported by low attendance. I imagine the viewig figures in Scotland are also poor.

[mad4motors]

Originally posted by John


Also I dont see why Mondello is on the calendar when its not even part of Britain (note British Touring Car Championship) - it would be good to have extra rounds in addition to the home circuits, but not instead of them.


:)

Actually Ireland is part of the British Isles. Ireland is historically called "Lesser Britain" and England, Scotland and Wales are "Great Britain", and both islands make up the British Isles, so I don't see why Ireland can't have a round, it's not the "United Kingdom Touring Car Championship"

[John]

Great Britian is England Scotland and Wales. Therefore the British Touring Car Championship ought to represent England Scotland and Wales

[Mocko]

Originally posted by John
Great Britian is England Scotland and Wales. Therefore the British Touring Car Championship ought to represent England Scotland and Wales

and Northern Ireland?

Anyway, the BTCC dropped Knockhill cos the circuit facilitys are rubbish. If you haven't been there you wouldn't know. The 'stand' at the hairpin is... just that. A shelter where you have to stand, no seats. All the spectator area are covered in mud. My shoes and trousers were covered in clart and walking along the trackside car park my shoes were sinking into the grass field. I can't imagine how hard it was for the cars to get out. Even our car, as did many others got stuck at the car park WHICH IS A FIELD. We needed to get towed out by a quad bike. There was also a tractor on hand.

It's a shame because the BTCC doesn't deserve that and the Knockhill CIRCUIT deserves the BTCC. It's now up to the Knockhill bosses to find investors to improve spectator facilities and get some pit garages.

[speedy king]

All the worlds race tracks are businesses. For a good business you have to make money. The point why Knockhill was dropped was because TOCA were not making any money out of the venue, and Knockhill racing circuit were loosing money. The round had to be dropped otherwise the financial state could have got worse. Also the facilities were no where near up to BMP satisfactory.

[John]

No not Northern Ireland. Just England Wales and Scotland.


Life's not just about making money. Consider a totally un-motorsport related example. A post office in a remote rural area isnt making a profit so the decision is taken to close it. People who live in that area now have to travel many miles to the nearest town to use that post office. A rural bus service doesnt make a profit so the operator reduces / removes the service. Both these situations would severely damage the communities as many people would be unable to utilise the alternatives (eg cannot get to the town because they are elderly or do not have access to a car or cannot afford a taxi). Admittedly this does happen, but in many cases the services are subsidised so that they can continue for the benefit of those that use them.

Getting back to motorsport...... if there is a problem with the facilities at Knockhill then there should be investment to bring them onto a par with other tracks. I have been there numerous times and am not that bothered about having to get a crappy bus from the field to the track, or about getting muddy, because I know what to expect and I know the benefits of the racing and seeing the cars and drivers outweighs the fact I have to wash my jeans when I get home.

Presumably since the circuit is / was making a loss then they are unlikely to be willing to spend money on improvements. Therefore I think there should be some funding set aside by the organisers of the championships that want to visit the track to help out.

I know I keep going on about this but the spread of circuits around Britian is far from ideal. Most are in the south / midlands. Oulton and Croft are the only ones that could in anyway be classed as Northerly and heres some figures:

Oulton is approx 350miles from Edinburgh and Glasgow and 550 miles from Aberdeen.
Croft is approx 310 miles from Edinburgh, 350miles from Glasgow and 510miles from Aberdeen.

I admit there are problems with the venue but the circuit seves a hell of a big area and without it there are a lot of people who would probably decide they cant be bothered travelling the greater distance to get to another circuit.

Dont get me wrong Im not against Mondello as it provides some great racing, but I think we should make sure we can accomodate the needs of the British public before expanding the series abroad.

[touringlegend]

I have heard that planning permission has been given for a new circuit in the central belt of Scotland....

[The Stig]

Another sensible and considered comment from John with which I agree. Knockhill is a circuit I haven't ever been to but have often enjoyed the televised racing, (loads of nerve and skills needed on wet race days for example), it's wrong to simply give up on the meeting for financial reasons. Is it Scotlands only top line circuit ?
If so with the right marketing it must have enormous potential and a pretty huge catchment area. The home of the British F1 GP, until recently had shocking facilities. Perhaps it is a chicken and egg situation, so to speak. Without investment spectactors won't bother, and because spectators don't bother investment isn't forthcoming. If you want to keep warm and dry and clean watching your sport, get an executive box at football I say. Reserve judgement at Mondello for now. Aren't we BTCC fans not B&I TCC ?? Just a thought !!!!!!

[Les]

I don't understand the comment about parking at Knockhill in a field? Apart from Silverstone everywhere you park is a field.
No grandstand at Knockhill - so what - Oulton Park has a temporary one.
Temporary toilets - so does Croft
mud - so does everywhere when it rains.

I would prefer Knockhill how it is rather than 100 Silverstones.

[John]

As far as I am aware its Scotland's only premier circuit but I stand to be corrected on that by anyone in the know.

To be fair the parking facilities at Knockhill aren't as good as many other circuits and its not possible to get close to the circuit which can cause problems if you want to take a lot of (or large) items to or from the circuit. But as I said if thats what people are expecting on arrival then they wont be dissapointed and if you want tarmac-ed car parking then it seems a trip to the cinema might be a better way to spend the afternoon!! ;)

[McKay]

Knockhill may have poor facilities, but John is right, if people are expecting that then its OK for them. Knockhill is a great circuit . By the way; whatever happened to Pembrey? If Mondello wasnt there, you might aswell call the BTCC the English Touring Car Championship.

[Jackie]

In answer to Johns comments....I think Knockhill is the only premier circuit in Scotland. Ingleston is no more. I read Niall Mackenzies autobiography recently and in it he mentioned a circuit in Kirkcaldy which had runoffs onto public roundabouts......not sure if that one still exists or not! Don't think it sounds very suitable for touring cars though!!!

[Paul Rayner]

Originally posted by John
Oulton is approx 350miles from Edinburgh and Glasgow and 550 miles from Aberdeen.
Croft is approx 310 miles from Edinburgh, 350miles from Glasgow and 510miles from Aberdeen.

Where on earth did you pull those figures from? They are ridiculous!

Croft 310 miles from Edinburgh?!?!?! Knockhill's less than 250 from me, and I live 50 miles South of Croft! theAA.com says it's 144 miles away, so you've more than doubled that distance! Glasgow 175miles away.

As for saying Croft is 510 miles away from Aberdeen, going by that it would mean that Thruxton is only 30 miles further down the A1! Try 540 miles for Thruxton, Hampshire.

Although I do agree that Scottish fans now have to travel very far to get to BTCC events and this is a great shame, before you try to make such a specific point I suggest you get your facts right.

Richard West has said in his forum that, "I am sure once their facilities meet with BMP's requirements, they will be back one day."

Scottish fans should be able to have a circuit where the facilities are up to the standard of English circuits, and Knockhill sadly isn't that. As for a race in Ireland, I'm told that the venue is top class and, as manufacturers sell cars, motorsport is popular, and there is no other International level racing in Ireland, I don't see why the Irish shouldn't get a British Touring Car round.

[John]

ok ok - try kilometers!!

If we're quoting references from now on its from the O/S road atlas of GB third edition 1991 (but is that classed as advertising?!?) ;)

[John]

Originally posted by Jackie
In answer to Johns comments....I think Knockhill is the only premier circuit in Scotland. Ingleston is no more. I read Niall Mackenzies autobiography recently and in it he mentioned a circuit in Kirkcaldy which had runoffs onto public roundabouts......not sure if that one still exists or not! Don't think it sounds very suitable for touring cars though!!!

Run offs onto roundabouts sounds... erm.... interesting!! That gives me an idea - a street race somewhere in Scotland like the Birmingham ones in the 80s!! Problem solved! (or maybe not!)

[Jackie]

Just looked up the name of the circuit.....it was Beveridge Park in Kirkcaldy. The run off took you onto a main road, round a roundabout then back onto the track! Can't find any more info about it though so I think it probably doesn't exist anymore...I wonder why!!
Just reading about the distances for us Scots to travel to other circuits.....on a good road it might only take you an hour to drive 70 miles (if you stay within the motorway speed limit!!!) but a lot of our roads are like the access road to Knockhill so it takes us twice as long to get anywhere!!:D

[John]

This might solve the Beveridge Park thing:

At one time there was motorbike racing in the Park but when new regulations were brought in with an increase in the width of the track, Beveridge Park was ruled out. Many nearby residents were glad as the noise of revving bikes for three days was horrendous. The last races in the Park were in 1988. By the Milton Gates the dipping of the track was known by the racers as 'Railway Dip' (from their website)

Also its a good point about the roads - even between Newcastle and Edinburgh on the A1 there are not many places where you can get an average of 70mph because most of it isn't even dual carriageway.

[Reynard]

Originally posted by McKay
By the way; whatever happened to Pembrey? If Mondello wasnt there, you might aswell call the BTCC the English Touring Car Championship.

I think what people often fail to realise is that you can't please everybody with the calendar - it is always going to be a compromise, and what with the cost-cutting measures currently being enforced by TOCA, something's got to give. As for calling it the ENGLISH touring car championship, I remember many a season when the series didn't venture west of Oulton Park or north of Donington . To make that comment is inappropriate given the previous history of the championship.

As for Pembrey - most drivers I know absolutely hate the place and won't go anywhere near it. It is a circuit that is short, narrow and difficult to overtake on at the best of times and taking the BTCC there is unlikely to show the series in the best of lights. Races at Pembrey have a high tendency to become very processional affairs...

It is a shame to lose Knockhill despite the fact that it is a great circuit and an atmospheric venue - both of which lead to some cracking race action, but given that a majority of the people involved in the BTCC i.e. teams, drivers and other personnel are based in either the Midlands or the South East, Knockhill was one of the more expensive meetings in terms of overheads.

For a lot of the smaller BTC Production teams the cost of going to Knockhill was prohibitive, and I seem to recall some of them not making the trip these last couple of years. And it is not just the BTCC that finds Knockhill expensive - the British GT entries for the Knockhill rounds in the previous two visits were far smaller than for circuits like Brands Hatch, Donington or even Snetterton as some teams avoided the trip north to save money.

Like it or not, economics plays a bigger part in motor racing than many of us like to admit, so purely on a financial basis , swapping Knockhill for Rockingam makes real sense.

[John]

Originally posted by Reynard
As for Pembrey - most drivers I know absolutely hate the place and won't go anywhere near it. It is a circuit that is short, narrow and difficult to overtake on at the best of times and taking the BTCC there is unlikely to show the series in the best of lights. Races at Pembrey have a high tendency to become very processional affairs...


Didnt Kurt Luby refer to it as 'a mickey mouse' or 'go cart' circuit?

[tvgod]

Originally posted by Reynard

It is a shame to lose Knockhill despite the fact that it is a great circuit and an atmospheric venue - both of which lead to some cracking race action, but given that a majority of the people involved in the BTCC i.e. teams, drivers and other personnel are based in either the Midlands or the South East, Knockhill was one of the more expensive meetings in terms of overheads.

For a lot of the smaller BTC Production teams the cost of going to Knockhill was prohibitive, and I seem to recall some of them not making the trip these last couple of years.

Dropping Knockhill wasn't a financial decision though. It was that the circuit facilities are just not good enough for a professional motorsport series.

You are not going to attract big manufacturers to a championship if it is racing at venues which don't have garages in the pit lane, or places for corporate hospitality.

Equally you are not going to attract tens of thousands of spectators if you can't provide easy access, catering, grandstands, adequate car parking or toilets.

Knockhill was a joke and if it wasn't in Scotland it would have been ditched years ago.

[Reynard]

Perhaps Knockhill's facilities aren't the best, but then again, my local circuit (Snetterton) doesn't have that much going for it either. And if Knockhill is such a joke, why do the British F3 and British GT series visit the circuit? F3-GT (Powertour) also visit Castle Combe and Croft - whose facilities, or lack of them, are pretty well much on par with Knockhill.

To be honest, most racing circuits bar Rockingham and Silverstone are distinctly lacking in terms of things like proper pits garages, toilets, grandstands, parking etc, so knocking Knockhill on that basis isn't exactly fair. Put it this way - fans go to the circuits to watch the racing, not to spend the day in an air-conditioned toilet block...

But I still stand by my argument that the reason behind dropping Knockhill is a financial one. Talk to all racing teams (from the biggest to the smallest) and they will say that it is the cost of getting places, hotel accommodation etc that makes far-flung race meetings more expensive and therefore less attractive in terms of monetary outlay.

My personal view is that the smaller circuits deserve every meeting that they can get and the gate receipts that comes with them - if meetings were doled out purely in terms of overall facilities, we'd probably only see action at three or four circuits in the UK, which would never do anyone any good.

Finally, a bit of food for thought:

F1 races at Monaco, where the garaging and paddock facilities are even worse than at Knockhill. It's been like that since the GP was first run there in the 1920s and everybody knows that this is a fact of life when competing there.

[speedy king]

Originally posted by Reynard
Perhaps Knockhill's facilities aren't the best, but then again, my local circuit (Snetterton) doesn't have that much going for it either. And if Knockhill is such a joke, why do the British F3 and British GT series visit the circuit? F3-GT (Powertour) also visit Castle Combe and Croft - whose facilities, or lack of them, are pretty well much on par with Knockhill.

To be honest, most racing circuits bar Rockingham and Silverstone are distinctly lacking in terms of things like proper pits garages, toilets, grandstands, parking etc, so knocking Knockhill on that basis isn't exactly fair. Put it this way - fans go to the circuits to watch the racing, not to spend the day in an air-conditioned toilet block...

But I still stand by my argument that the reason behind dropping Knockhill is a financial one. Talk to all racing teams (from the biggest to the smallest) and they will say that it is the cost of getting places, hotel accommodation etc that makes far-flung race meetings more expensive and therefore less attractive in terms of monetary outlay.

My personal view is that the smaller circuits deserve every meeting that they can get and the gate receipts that comes with them - if meetings were doled out purely in terms of overall facilities, we'd probably only see action at three or four circuits in the UK, which would never do anyone any good.

Finally, a bit of food for thought:

F1 races at Monaco, where the garaging and paddock facilities are even worse than at Knockhill. It's been like that since the GP was first run there in the 1920s and everybody knows that this is a fact of life when competing there.

MONEY!!!!!!!!! I've said it before and i'll say it again, Knockhill were not making any money out of the BTCC, infact, they were loosing money, they obviously do make money out of British F3 and Gt's though!

[Reynard]

Originally posted by speedy king
MONEY!!!!!!!!! I've said it before and i'll say it again, Knockhill were not making any money out of the BTCC, infact, they were loosing money, they obviously do make money out of British F3 and Gt's though!

On what basis are you making that particular statement? Let me give you an example, but using Snetterton as a point as I did both the BTCC and F3-GT meetings there last year:

The typical gate for a BTCC meeting at Snetterton is about 20,000. Then you've got all the revenue from the merchandising stands, burger vans etc. It would be hard not to lose money in that situation - at worst you'd be breaking even, and that's unlikely. In contrast, there probably weren't more than 2000 people at Snetterton for the F3-GT meet just a few weeks later. There were no merchandising stands at all and only one burger van for the whole circuit. Try telling me that would make a profit?

The fact is that the BTCC pulls in far more interest than F3-GT ever would even among dedicated enthusiasts, so to even think that a circuit could make a profit on what is essentially a club meeting (though it pains me to say that as I am a big fan of GT racing) is pretty absurd.

Whatever the reason Knockhill was actually dropped for (and we may never know the exact circumstances behind the decision) it certainly wasn't down to there not being enough revenue generated at a meet since BTCC gates are always very substantial in comparison to those of other championships - with the exception of British Superbikes - and this is before you add factors such as TV money, sponsors, corporate hospitality etc.

[touringlegend]

Teams may well have found it dear to travel to Knockhill, but then it was part of the championship they wanted to enter. If they started complaining come Knockhill's round that they couldn't afford it, then they should of thought that out before they jumped into teh series.


Sorry, but if some of the teams can't afford the BTCC visiting all corners of the BTCC, then they should reconsider their participation in it, I think they'd find club racing much cheaper, and it would probably be at their level too.

[Reynard]

The problem of finance lies mainly with the teams in BTC Production. They COULD as you suggest go back to club racing, but therein lies the problem:

When BTC production was realised, it was based on the rules of the National Saloon Cup and the various offshoots of production saloons. A good number of teams then decided to enter the BTCC as a result, because they'd be taking part in better class racing and get much more publicity.

The unfortunate effect of this has been the effective demise of multi-marque production car racing outside of that offered by local motor clubs or low-cost road saloons. There is very little that caters for cars that run to BTCC-type regs.

It is the same issue that the Porsche Cup is facing with the new regulations for the British GT series.

[touringlegend]

Which is why I think production should be seperated from Touring - some people would argue it'd make the grid laughable, but if production had nothing to do with the BTCC, then their budgets would be smaller, and those who really wanted the benefits of the BTCC would find some way to get into Touring.

[Les]

There is another side to the argument that they won't go because of the facilities.... just say to them that they could be a support race at Monaco GP.

Now what's the betting they would all want to go and yet the Clios were pitted in an underground garage - just think of the fumes and heat in there. Would you have found anywhere for hospitality - a marque in someone's back garden perhaps?

It's to do with prestige as well I feel. Knockhill just isn't IT.

[Claw]

Originally posted by John
No not Northern Ireland. Just England Wales and Scotland.


The UK is Nothern Ireland, England, Scotland, Wales!

Irelands on it's own, so the BTCC is ventureing outside of Britain!

[John]

Originally posted by Claw
The UK is Nothern Ireland, England, Scotland, Wales!


Yeah the UK is NI, Eng, Scot and Wales, but GB is only Eng, Scot and Wales.

[Paul Rayner]

Originally posted by Reynard
On what basis are you making that particular statement? Let me give you an example, but using Snetterton as a point as I did both the BTCC and F3-GT meetings there last year:

The typical gate for a BTCC meeting at Snetterton is about 20,000.
Maybe that's part of the problem. Although for the last two years Snetterton didn't get 20,000 people (16,000 in 2001 and I think it was about 12,000 last year), Knockhill has been getting the lowest gate figures of the year. And in 2001 you couldn't blame that on the weather.

If Scots love Knockhill so much, then why does it get the lowest gate despite the fact that it's further away from another circuit than any other track in the UK is?

tvgod said Knockhill was a joke. In some ways it is. One of the toilets there, as I've said for a while, is appalling, and just shouldn't exist any more, and VIP parking, for people who could be paying hundreds of thousands of pounds to sponsor Touring Cars, was a muddy hill. This is just not acceptable in the 21st century.

[John]

Just been looking through some old pics and as many of you said you hadn't been to Knockhill so don't know what we're talking about I've found a couple that illustrate the points made about pit lane facilities (assuming the attachment works that is!)

This illustrates the GR motorsport garage - as they had 4 Focusus (Foci?!) then they obviously needed 4 of everthing (NB you can see there is another garage on the RHS of the transporter)

[John]

This is similar and shows the equivalent for Collard's Renault. Note in this one how close to the cars/garages the public can get (at any time as the area isnt closed off after the walkabout like other places)

BTW sorry about the quality - by the time I resized and reduced the size to 40k they aren't nearly as good as they were :(

[Mocko]

Doesn't bother me how close to the cars you get. Though I suppose the worry is for team bosses is that some Glasgow Ned pafs the alloys.

Getting right close to Mullers Vaux was great.