Unequal equipment within a team

[John]

This point has come up a few times lately, most noticeably concerning James Kaye and David Leslie at Honda. I have found a paragraph in the 1992 Touring Car Review that illustrates the point really well. It concerns the Nissan Team and says:

"O'dor's car was newly built and featured a much lower ride height than the car run for Middlehurst until mid season which was still to the 91 specification. Thereafter, Middlehurst took over O'dor's car with Keith in a second low line example. A third low line car was then built and the origional low line, which had featured in several accidents was driven by Needell at Silverstone."

So the casual observer may think Middlehurst is totally outclassed by Odor - whereas in reality a major part of it is because Keith always had the best car, and when Tiff arrived at the end of the season he was in a very second hand car and had no track time in comparison with the guys who had completed the whole season, so would be expected to be off the pace in comparison. But the TV viewer would just see 3 black Nissans all looking the same and assume they were the same spec, so any difference in pace is due to the drivers.

[Claw]

Well i'm not surprised Keith had the bst cars at Nissan as his Dad ran the team!

[John]

True - although not always the case - Lemmer never had the best car at Barwell in 2000 despite being team owner.

[Claire]

I know that it went on in one team last season, one driver and car got better treatment and equipment than the other, but as unfair as it is I guess it comes down to which driver may do better and has the money behind them to pay for the privilege.

[John]

Originally posted by Claire
I know that it went on in one team last season, one driver and car got better treatment and equipment than the other, but as unfair as it is I guess it comes down to which driver may do better and has the money behind them to pay for the privilege.

Not prepared to name and shame?? ;) Think I can guess from what you say in that last line! :mad:

[MG-ZS EX260]

Originally posted by John
Not prepared to name and shame?? ;) Think I can guess from what you say in that last line! :mad:

yeah! i think that too, but the 'pesrons' team mate often out qualified and out raced him. (i hope we are both thinking of he same person!)

[Claw]

I've got no idea who Claire and John are talking about unfair treatment last year?! :confused: :confused: :confused:

[MG-ZS EX260]

well claw, who managed to ge a drive in the BTCC becasue of talent, winning a certain other minor championship, and his HUGE bank balance, u must know!

[Claire]

I can't name and shame I'm afraid but it isn't who you think it is, but it could have easily happened there as well. :rolleyes:

[Claw]

Originally posted by MG-ZS EX260
well claw, who managed to ge a drive in the BTCC becasue of talent, winning a certain other minor championship, and his HUGE bank balance, u must know!

:confused:

PM me and tell me, cos this is doing my head in!

[Rob]

Originally posted by MG-ZS EX260
well claw, who managed to ge a drive in the BTCC becasue of talent, winning a certain other minor championship, and his HUGE bank balance, u must know!


are we talking about the guy with his sisters bank balance or the guy with his daddys bank balance.

[MG-ZS EX260]

daddies money! i hadnt thought about famous sisters money, i dont thnk its him, but its the youngster with daddies money.

[John]

Get the impression from Clairs last post that its not that team.

Cant see it being Egg - 888 wouldn't do that and Matt wouldnt stand for it anyway.
Doubt its Proton or MG, unlikely to be Honda or Halfords so maybe we should be thinking about Production?

Give us a clue! :)

[Claire]

My lips are sealed because I shouldn't really know what I do, sorry.

[MG-ZS EX260]

i doubt its MG but didnt Hughes have to wait till oulton to get the new Spec ZS and reid got it a round earlier (season opener)? thats a bit unfair i supose.

[John]

That was just cos there was only one car ready (anyway Reid didnt get it cos he puts money into the team, but because he's earnt his status over the past seasons) anyway it was even more unfair on TAK who didnt get any cars at all til Oulton!

[Les]

there was one team were the differences were so big it was nearly laughable. You look at the Dynamics re-engineered Alfa for Pyper and the other two alfas - a world of difference. There was no way Saunders and Blencowe could beat Pyper.

[John]

Originally posted by Les
there was one team were the differences were so big it was nearly laughable. You look at the Dynamics re-engineered Alfa for Pyper and the other two alfas - a world of difference. There was no way Saunders and Blencowe could beat Pyper.

Does that say more about the difference between GA and Dynamics though? (Im not saying it does - just wondering).

Speaking of TD - do they have any plans this season? If GA are running at least 4 cars (2 Astras and 2 Alfas) then are they likely to help out there again?

[Reynard]

Unequal equipment within a team isn't just confined to touring cars in the UK. Happens quite often in "professional" championships outside the BTCC. I saw and heard quite a bit last year, but I'm going to keep my mouth clamped tightly shut.

Anyway, the point I want to make is regarding TWR Volvo in 1996 and 1997, when Kelvin wad driving alongside Rickard Rydell.

Kel was ostensibly signed by Tom Walkinshaw on an equal basis to Rickard. If that hadn't been the case, then he never would have signed. (There were a few other reasons as well, but not related to the point I want to make.) Theoretically, both drivers should have had equal equipment and technical support throughout the duration of the championship.

It certainly started off like that (on the face of it at least), and it was Kelvin who took Volvo's first win of 1996 at Silverstone after overcoming the challenge of Roberto Ravaglia. Until then, there was very little to split the drivers. However, things started to go downhill after Kelvin's crash at Oulton Park. With the pressure on him from TWR to keep up with Rydell (around whom the team was built), Kelvin came back too soon from his accident and it cost him.

The team started to lean more heavily on Rydell, withdrawing development parts, testing time and technical support from Kelvin. This persisted into 1997, where Kelvin ran the whole year without a race engineer and did virtually no testing on the S40 over the winter and during the season. Without the track time and technical support, it was impossible for him to keep up with Rickard.

This made Kelvin look mediocre, which is certainly not the case - the situation at TWR was certainly as unequal as it was likely to get. At the end of 1997, TWR had the nerve to offer Kelvin a third season in the team - but only if he would agree to sign as the number two driver to Rickard, rather than the "equal" status that he had "enjoyed" over the previous two years.

For Kelvin, it was a real kick in the teeth given what he had been subjected to by TWR. It was unsurprising then, that he turned them down and went to look elsewhere for a drive. The rest, as they say, is history.

[John]

Reynard - in the period between Oulton 96 and Kelvin returning was there a substitute driver, I have never come across a stand in driver in any reference material I have, and there's no mention on the reviews etc.

If, as it seems, there was a time when the team basically ran as a one car team with Rik then it during that time it would be difficult for them to do anything but focus all their resources on him, especially as he was high up in the championship at the time.

Not offering an excuse or disagreeing with what you say about unfair treatment, as from what you say (and you should know) it sounds very unprofessional, just wondering firstly whether there was a replacement while Kelvin recovered, and secondly whether it's that unexpected that a returning driver would be asked to support the other driver in the team (ignoring the 1997 situation for a moment of course!!) ;)

[Reynard]

Yes, there was a replacement driver for Kelvin, but he didn't race as he destroyed the car in a qualifying shunt and it left the team with only a single useable chassis. That's probably why you don't see it in the reviews.

And since Kelvin only missed the one meeting and three races in total, he still had (at the time) a reasonable position in the championship with all the chance of finishing as the top Volvo driver. It would have been enough for Rickard to throw it at the scenery a few times...

It was a situation that Kel couldn't win, whichever way he tried. If he had taken longer to recover, the team would have polarised more towards Rydell while he was gone, so that's why he came back as quickly as he could.

It's not unexpected that at some point, a driver is expected to help his team mate win, but the point I'm making is that Kelvin was already fighting a losing battle in this respect even before his Oulton Park crash. (Until Kel crashed, Rickard was nowhere near winning a race.)

John, Volvo was built up around Rydell (just ask Lammers, Harvey, Morbidelli and Radermecker), and their excuses about having two equal drivers is just that. I'd rate Kel over Rickard any day, but TWR had to take into account what Volvo wanted.

So essentially, the front provided by TWR was a sham. Also, on several occasions, Kelvin was ordered to let Rydell through even when there wouldn't be an appreciable benefit by doing so. This was despite the fact that Kel was often the faster of the two.

[John]

Originally posted by Reynard
Yes, there was a replacement driver for Kelvin, but he didn't race as he destroyed the car in a qualifying shunt and it left the team with only a single useable chassis. That's probably why you don't see it in the reviews.

OOPS!! Who was it do you know?

I have to say that the team orders thing is very annoying - it doesnt do teams any favours either - Look at Ferrari! The only team that seems to get away with it is Egg, Paul O'Neill seemed fairly happy to let Matt pass on a couple of occassions, saying he felt there was a benefit from following - but if the driver isnt willing then its not on.

As for the equipment issue in some respects thats even worse, at least if a driver slows down lets his team mate pass then follows him bumper to bumper to then end its pretty obvious to fans that it must have been a team order, but although I knew Rik was a favoured driver at TWR I wasnt aware it was to the extent you describe here (and I know more than the casual race watcher who tunes in on a Saturday afternoon every few weeks) - so there are a lot who wouldnt rate these drivers in 'substandard' machinery for this reason :(

[Racing4Real]

A good driver can still do well in unequal equipment.

How many people watching BTCC last year knew that Cato's B&Q car last year was a 1999 car versus Edwards Junior's 2001 spec version? Wouldn't have guessed it from what they saw...hopefully the team bosses know enough to recognise talent when they see it, whatever the equipment.

[Reynard]

Well yeah - if that is the case, fair enough.

But truthfully how much actual difference was there between the two Honda Accords that you describe? Given that the regulations have remained essentially constant for production class cars over the last few seasons, having an older car would not necessarily be so much of a disadvantage. This is bearing in mind the general level of the budgets available at that end of the grid and Team B&Q in particular.

If anything, I actually see it as a definite advantage, because unless the car has been heavily shunted, its set-up and general development has a proven track record and so there'd be far fewer unknowns for the driver to dial out on the circuit - especially if he's a driver who knows what he's on about.

The newer the race car, the harder it is to set up, as no two cars, even ones of the same type will ever feel quite the same and so therefore there's no direct comparison anyway. And it may be that Peter Cate could be benefiting from a well-sorted car, or that he may just be better at setting-up his equipment than Jim Edwards.

Although in most cases the equality of equipment, technical support and track time available to a driver does play a part, a lot of this is also a psychological problem. There's usually far more to these kinds of situation than meets the eye - if the environment within a team doesn't suit a driver, then it is impossible for him to perform irrespective of how good or bad his equipment is.

Motor racing is just as much about mind games than it is about pure ability and the quality of equipment.

[Les]

or he could have been going sh*t or bust instead of racking up the points like Jim.

[Racing4Real]

I don't know the diffrence between the 99 Accord Cato drove and the 2001 version that Edwards drove, but given that the 99 car was Edwards old one, I would have thought he'd have stayed in it if it was better!

Either way, I'm just sad that Cato doesn't seem to have a drive in BTC this year :confused: