Disciplinary regulations and their enforcement

[The Stig]

Didn't want to go off at too much of a tangent on the Thruxton thread which appears to have opened up a bigger debate about the imposition of fines or punishments on "errant" drivers. So, could anyone from the many informed members of the forum explain who is responsible for disciplinary matters following accidents and incidents.
I personally don't believe there has to be a wrongdoer at every accident. If a driver seeks advantage by unfair means, fair go, but how on earth do stewards or committees decide what is or isn't a racing accident?
Pyper gets 2 points, Matt Neal gets a fine. You can't be half guilty, can you ? If you are wrong enough to be fined or endorsed by points, make them big fines or endorsements. Seems to me, the only consistent thing about the rule makers is their inconsistency.

[redshoes]

Initially it's down to the Clerk of the Course, then the BTCC Stewards, then the MSA, depending on how far you want to appeal.

Totally agree that not every accident has someone to blame. The Clerks and Stewards will look at all available evidence be that reports from Observers at marshal's posts, statements from fellow drivers and in the case of the BTCC and other series were it is available video evidence from both trackside and on-board cameras. In some cases they will spend hours reviewing the footage if multiple angles are available. Every incident is different and has to be judged on it's own merits. It's a difficult, and some would say thankless, task, but the people making these decision are much more experienced than us 'armchair experts'.

Just to correct you on one point, Matt got 3 points and a fine, increase from just a fine on appeal. If you are suggesting a flat number of of points rather than the variable fine/points system used them I'm afraid it just wouldn't work. It's like suggesting treating giving someone who drops little the same life sentence as someone who commits mast muder. (Ok a tad extreme but you get the point).

In comparing the two incidents forget about the financial damage caused to Collard's car, that should have little bearing on the penalty applied. In Pyper's case they were in heavy traffic, there wasn't that much contact, and there were other contributing factors. In Neal's case there was no other traffic around and it was more of a deliberate, even desperate last corner lunge. Leaving aside the arguement of whether Pyper was actually guilty in the first place I beleive there is justification for the differing penalties.

[Father Jack]

Originally posted by redshoes
Initially it's down to the Clerk of the Course, then the BTCC Stewards, then the MSA, depending on how far you want to appeal.
According to the race day commentry at Thruxton, MG are appealing to the RAC on the Turkington/Thommo incident at Brands.
I think it was Tim Harvey who said this. He also said they should 'let sleeping dogs lie'.

[touring fan]

The RAC? Did he mean really mean that or was he on about the MSA? (or am I thinking of the wrong RAC?):confused:

[redshoes]

He means the MSA. Up until a few years ago it was the RACMSA but changed when the roadside recovery business was floated on the stock exchange. A lot of drivers still refer to it as the RAC.

[The Stig]

redshoes, thanks for your clarification. I now know considerably more than yesterday. Think the Matt Neal episode is far more clear cut than the Thruxton situation. Agree it is perhaps easy for us armchair forum critics to pass judgement. Just think if Gavin Pyper is the only driver disciplined for Thruxton, at least one other has been pretty lucky. Each case should be judged on it's own merits I agree. At what point in time, or accumulation of points will the MSA/BTC stewards consider a racing ban and do the accumulated points eventually lapse ? Presumably the drivers start each new season with a "CCDL"
Sorry for all the questions, these areas don't appear to be covered on the TOCA website. If they are I can't find them.

[Alan]

I think as with a road licence things start to go 'orribly pear shaped when you get to 12 points.

How long you get banned for I do not know - but in the last few years there have been more than a handful of drivers each year get very close to that point.

They do appear to lose all their points for the new season. I do wonder if points from different race series all go together, in which case guys like Phil B have to be careful (as he seems to race in a different series each weekend).

I have a two year old "blue book" somewhere - I will have a look and report back if it divulges anything pertinent (burp - sorry, swallowed a dictionary!!!:p )

[redshoes]

Once you get to 8 penalty points TOCA (via the BTCC Clerk) can deduct a maximum of 8 championship points.
After 12 penalty points TOCA can deduct a maximum of 23 championship points plus any other championship penaltys within the regs. [1]
In both cases that's driver's and/or Indy Cup points, not team or manufacturer points.

[1] possible penalties are : reprimand, fine, exclusion from one or more races, exclusion from the championship. Maximum fine for a single breach of regs is £30,000.

Thinking about it the penalty points idea is relatively new. it used to be 3 endorsements and you lost your licence and you could get an endorsement for a relatively minor offense such as missing the weighbridge/ride-height check. The points system is much fairer.

All the above applies just to the BTCC. The MSA can also add licence endorsements if it goes to appeal. In theory a driver who races in more than one series could have his licence suspended thanks to incidents in one series without every troubling the BTCC stewards.

As far as BTCC regs are concerned any penalties are wiped at the start of the season. Not 100% sure how the MSA do thing, I believe some endorsements can be carried over for a period of month [see Tom Chilton last year]

[MG-ZS EX260]

Yes, MG are VERY VERY unhappy about the move thomo made on turkey, and i think they are right, too much stupid contact is happening, people use the excuse its touring cars with panel bashin E.t.c but this is a professional championship, if you have to knock somone out of the way its a display of bad bad driving in my view.

And MG are Insistant in continueing with there complaint about thomo, they want to do it also for the good of the sport.

[The Stig]

MG-ZS, what is the basis of the MG complaint ? From what I remember, (I've since used my videotape), Thommo shouldered past and as they both cleared the corner, Turkey seemed to collect it, straighten up and in so doing dinged the Vauxhall which speared him off. I hope I'm not missing a different incident.

[redshoes]

MG are protesting Thompson's initial "shouldereding past".

[The Stig]

Would be interested to hear the outcome of that one, given recent verdicts. Looked innocuous to me at the time and on tape later.

[MG-ZS EX260]

Turkey did not turn in to thomo on purpose, when thomo came upthe inside, a move that wasnt goin 2 be pulled off without contact, turkey got knocked sideways, he flawed the accelator, which took him to the left side of the track, then trying to straighten it up he had understeer and as the car gripped he hit thompson, and off he went into the barriers, turkington couldnt have done anything to help it, yes the first time i saw it i thought he drove back into him but he didnt purposefully.