Was Hamiltons penalty Fair or Unfair

[jonboy1066]

Ok we all had our say yesterday, but the thread got closed. The more regular posters here had their say and I don't wish to try and sway anyones descisions or start another messy thread. It's clear that some of us have differing oppinions on this subject and have gone to lengths to show how we feel about it and that's what forums are for but I would be interested to see what the answer to the simple question of fair or un fair is.

No need to post at length or start another argument, just vote one way or the other.

Thanks

[BTCCROCKS]

It was unfair. But it's in the past, so can we move on please

[Racing_Fan]

Totally unfair; Niki Lauda clearly agrees calling it "the worst judgement in the history of F1".

[Eunos]

Yesterday when i heard the News, I was cursing and Swearing, I actually had to be Calmed down..

I still strongly disagree with the Penalty and am seriously angered inside..

Before anybody accuses me of being Bias just because it's Hamilton, If i had seen him do something wrong to deserve than i'd say Fair enough.

I've honestly tried to lay off the whole Ferrari/FIA bashing, Even overlooked the Valencia Decision, But this just takes the Biscuit.

I've seen Drivers get away with Worse in the past.

[Racing_Fan]

It was unfair. But it's in the past, so can we move on please
I think the trouble this time is that it will be difficult to move on with a decision like this being made. I dont think it should be forgotten and hope the debates/petitions continue until the FIA realise this type of ruling is killing the sport.

[jonboy1066]

I certainly don't think that this subject is in the past yet as we still need to hear if the appeal goes ahead, and what the outcome of that appeal is.

It's not my intention to start another debate on the why's and wherefores of the descision and don't want another argumentative thread some of us have differing oppinions and I respect that, I just want to see how the majority of users of this forum feel in answer to the simple question without having to elaborate. After all we're here because we're motorsport fans and this latest event has and will have a massive impact on motorsport now and in the future.

[stonedcamel]

completely fair, after wartching it. yea he let the ferrari passed and then retook the position but he already had the momentum to overtake into the next corner, he hadnt cut the corner and slotted in behind he wudnt have had the momentum to make it.

VERY FAIR TO PENALISE

[bringbacktheolddays]

completely fair, after wartching it. yea he let the ferrari passed and then retook the position but he already had the momentum to overtake into the next corner, he hadnt cut the corner and slotted in behind he wudnt have had the momentum to make it.

VERY FAIR TO PENALISE
Is that why the car data shows Hamiliton lifted off over the start finish straight :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Like Nikki Lauda says worst decesion in F1 History.

[jonboy1066]

Is that why the car data shows Hamiliton lifted off over the start finish straight :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Like Nikki Lauda says worst decesion in F1 History.


Please lets not start another titt for tat thread over it I don't want Ed1 to close the poll, we all have our opinions some are clouded by who we support, some are impartial, some are based on fact let's leave it at that.

[bringbacktheolddays]

Please lets not start another titt for tat thread over it I don't want Ed1 to close the poll, we all have our opinions some are clouded by who we support, some are impartial, some are based on fact let's leave it at that.
At the End of the day the Hammy fans will say its Unfair and so will the Neutrals but the Lewis Hamiliton Haters club will say it was fair.
At the end of the day as a Neutral and a British Citezen it is Blatenley obvious it is the Worst decesion in F1 History.

[simon1220]

It was unfair. But it's in the past, so can we move on please

Yesterday is past news :confused:

If thats the case then surely we can never debate anything.

It was stupidly unfair!

[Editor1]

Simon1220 is quite correct - it is still hot news so of course you can debate it/given opinion...

... PROVIDED it is kept sensible and not too hot-headed (which is why yesterday's thread was closed, eg. for using bad language of which simon1220 was one offender - please see PMs)...

Ed1

[ash1751]

I think it was unfair. It's just getting stupid, they should just stick to their own rules and not keep bending them.

[topgear1]

It was unfair. But it's in the past, so can we move on please

i could move on about the 'massa decision' in valencia which was laso unfair and stupid- but this decision really makes we so angry and it destroys the remaining credibility that the sport has.

(and im not a fan of hamilton- so im not just saying this because it's him.)

[topgear1]

after reviewing the fottage- he could have given him a bit more space across the line-but even if he was in the wrong- the punishment really does not fir the crime.

he should have had a gp penalty or a fine for the next race- the punishment seems far too severe for a very simple mistake in which hamilton avoided a dangerous accident.

[darnellefenderson]

I'm not a Hamilton fan, and nor is anyone else in my house. We all think it was an unfair decision, but my mum and I did laugh when we found out, because we like Massa.

[kezbabybabe]

The regs do not allow the place to be given back, so therefore Lewis gained a brief advantage and continued to have an advantage once he gave the position back. The stewards found him guilty of that and punished him as the regs stated...25secs on his time.

It's just lucky really that is was during the last 5 laps as he could've been given a grid place drop for Monza.

It's a shame it happened that way as those last few laps were stunning work for both Kimi and Lewis to keep the car in a straight line on slicks in the wet.

Roll on Monza I say! :)

[laurat]

i don't really see a point in carrying on a discussion about anything to do with the controversy of yesterday - the penalty has been given, nothing can be done about it so what's the point in making a mountain out of a molehill? i know you guys are entitled to opinions and all that jazz, but i think this is definitely a discussion to be left well alone ...

[jonboy1066]

The stewards who imposed a retrospective 25-second penalty against Lewis Hamilton two hours after he finished the Belgian GP in first place have been identified as Nicholas Deschaux, Surinder Thatthi and Yves Bacquelaine.


Of the three, Deschaux is arguably the most well known figure, albeit despite apparently having no experience of being a racing driver. The 37-year-old has spent his professional career in administration, and was appointed the President of the French Motorsport Federation last year after previously holding the position of legal director, executive vice president, and then general secretary within the body. It was Deschaux who announced earlier this year that the French GP had been given a reprieve and would remain at Magny-Cours for at least another year.


Thatthi is the chairman of the Confederation of African Countries in Motorsports who has only previously leapt to prominence when it was revealed that he had expressed formal concern about the long hair and scruffy look of four-time world rally champion Sebastien Loeb in May.


In an email to Morrie Chandler, the president of the World Rally Championship, that was leaked to Reuters, Thatthi complained: "I watched the WRC Mexico highlights last night and I have to voice my opinion on the poor appearance of Sebastien Loeb on WRC-TV".


"He was unshaven, scruffy looking and with unkempt hair! It is wrong....when the FIA gives him global TV coverage to millions of viewers and to many children worldwide he is a hero and role model.


"I know there is a level of personal freedom one is allowed but I feel he is taking this too far and someone should talk to him or his team about this."


Bacquelaine, meanwhile, is the chairman of 'Societe de Promotion du circuit de Spa-Francorchamps' - a position that apparently confers on him the position of race steward.

So here are the esteemed "Stewards" who imposed the penalty. Good to see that these important descisions are made by people who have no racing experience, are pre-occupied with saving their own countries dull GP venue, obsessed with the hairstyle of a rally driver, and the chairman of a promotional organisation.

That seems perfect for the job LOL

[stonedcamel]

everyone is allowed there opinion and whats done is done

[jonboy1066]

i don't really see a point in carrying on a discussion about anything to do with the controversy of yesterday - the penalty has been given, nothing can be done about it so what's the point in making a mountain out of a molehill? i know you guys are entitled to opinions and all that jazz, but i think this is definitely a discussion to be left well alone ...


Then leave it alone Laura if you don't want to be involved, the penalty has been given BUT it's under appeal, so there's still more to come, it's still very much in the now and not in the past and we are entitled to discuss it.

[Relaxin Mood]

it was unfair. but as a listen to the FIA case i can see there point. Fair enough he did cut the bus stop. but he DID let him back throu. The only way he could of got away with it if he let him stay in front for another few corners and tried again....

[laurat]

Then leave it alone Laura if you don't want to be involved, the penalty has been given BUT it's under appeal, so there's still more to come, it's still very much in the now and not in the past and we are entitled to discuss it.
i never said i didn't want to be involved and i never said you weren't entitled to discuss it. what i did say is that you guys are all entitled to your opinions, i just can't believe after one thread gets closed, another is started over exactly the same thing .. it's silly. get over it ... it's a sport, it's not as if your life depends upon it.
what exactly can you do about it? all the shouting, debating and discussion in the whole wide world won't solve anything - there has already been a decision made and lewis was found guilty so nothing can change that

[obsessivecompulsive2]

I;m sorry to say this,but i have to agree with the decision of imposing a penalty,even though it was obvious to everyone watching that Lewis was trying to avoid a collision,in doing this he gained a place by "cutting" the bus-stop chicane!

There are no dispensations for giving the place back,so sadly the penalty will no doubt stand!

Mclaren are appealing this,but the outcome of this appeal could take weeks or months to reach conclusion,obviously the rules need a serious overhaul,preferably by someone who has been involved in motorsport.

[laurat]

can we not just forget this thread is here because i can see it ending up in an argument again? it would be silly to allow the forum to get into that state ... there is no need for it. peace and all that guys :)

[jonboy1066]

*Deleted, I'm clearly being baited into a row that I don't want*

[jonboy1066]

I;m sorry to say this,but i have to agree with the decision of imposing a penalty,even though it was obvious to everyone watching that Lewis was trying to avoid a collision,in doing this he gained a place by "cutting" the bus-stop chicane!

There are no dispensations for giving the place back,so sadly the penalty will no doubt stand!

Mclaren are appealing this,but the outcome of this appeal could take weeks or months to reach conclusion,obviously the rules need a serious overhaul,preferably by someone who has been involved in motorsport.

Now that is the ONLY reasonable and well written post I have seen in support of the penalty, I can see your point there, I don't completely agree, but can see where you're coming from and I appreciate the impartiality. Thank you for the input

[obsessivecompulsive2]

Let me refer you back to this:




Part of my post for confirmation that this is still a topic worth talking about.

and This:



part of your post which points out why you're not making any sense. As you are clearly not leaving it alone as you suggested and trying to bait another argument to get the thread closed

No life does't depend on it but this is a sport which I have had a big interest in, been pasionate about and have folowed closely for over 20 years so when you can see it going clearly to the dogs over poor management and bad descision making then I'm allowed to be a little upset and voice an oppinion aren't I?:rolleyes:
I think the pair of you really ought to stop replying to each others posts,you are both being clearly argumentative,even if it is with each other!

This thread is definitely heading for closure if this carries on!

[obsessivecompulsive2]

Now that is the ONLY reasonable and well written post I have seen in support of the penalty, I can see your point there, I don't completely agree, but can see where you're coming from and I appreciate the impartiality. Thank you for the input
Why thank you!:)

R.E. my previous post should contain these::D :D ,i in no way intend to act as an unofficial moderator!:D

[jonboy1066]

Yeah like I've just said in my edit I've deleted that post as I'm clearly being baited. I want this thread and poll to stay open as I'm interested in what the majority of members thinks about the penalty

[jonboy1066]

Why thank you!:)

R.E. my previous post should contain these::D :D ,i in no way intend to act as an unofficial moderator!:D

No it was the voice of reason Thanks again;)

[kezbabybabe]

There are no dispensations for giving the place back.
Thank you Mark, that's what I was trying to say in my post. :)

[obsessivecompulsive2]

Thank you Mark, that's what I was trying to say in my post. :)
You;re welcome Kerry,keep it on topic though!:)

[bringbacktheolddays]

He gainned no advantage cause the only person afected crashed anyway so he still would of won. They should just take the time off were he cut the chicane about 1 secound.

[jonboy1066]

There are no dispensations for giving the place back,so sadly the penalty will no doubt stand!


This bit I clearly understand and I can see where you're coming from, and although it's probably not black and white in the rules over giving the place back it's always been understood that no advantage (be it time or track position) should be gained by such a cut.

Over the years drivers have been penalised for gaining such an advantage and drivers have been let off for giving the spot back so a precedent has been set, take Monza as an example, every year someone outbrakes themselves into turn 1 and takes to the escape road and almost every year some are allowed to get away with it and others aren't depending on whether they gained position or not.

The problem with Lewis's situation is whether he gained an advantage or not, some say yes, some say no I think that as he was off the throttle and completely behind Kimi at the line and going 6 km/h slower than kimi across the line then he had no advantage from taking to the escape road of the chicane. In fact I feel that he should be commended for avoiding a crash through his actions.

The only advantage I can see is that the track was getting wet and the McClarens work better in those conditions as they keep the temperatures in their tyres better than Ferraris so Kimi had to brake a lot earlier than Lewis into La Source which exaggerates the speed differential and apparent "Unfair" advantage which IMO is more to do with the weather than anyone's driving.

For the record I do not have any problem with Kimi's defence into "The Bus Stop" I think it was good fair and hard racing, but by defending in that manner Lewis had no choice but to take to the run off.

My problem is with the FIA's obvious inconsistancy, no complaint was made about Lewis's overtake, the investigation was done off of the stewards own backs,

Conversely

The Stewards and FIA have dsecided not to do anything about the matter of Kimi overtaking Lewis under yellow flags:



Ferrari have confirmed that the stewards did not question Kimi Raikkonen over why he overtook Lewis Hamilton under a yellow flag when they summoned him after the Belgian GP.


As Hamilton crossed the line to claim an apparent victory in Spa, notification came from the stewards that they were investigating an incident involving cars 1 and 22.


While it was subsequently confirmed that Hamilton was under investigation for cutting the chicane shortly before overtaking Raikkonen's Ferrari, the Finn's own driving came under heavy scrutiny after the race when it was noted that he overtook Hamilton later on the same lap despite yellow flags being waved to indicate that Nico Rosberg had slid off the track.


While Hamilton apparently slowed down, Raikkonen overtook the McLaren which was then required to take to the grass in order to avoid a collision. However, despite the obvious danger of the incident, the stewards deemed it not worthy of their consideration.


Specifically asked by Autosport whether Raikkonen had been questioned over the incident, Ferrari boss Stefano Domenicali confirmed: "No, no, no, at least not... when we were summoned we were asked to speak about the manoeuvre at the last chicane between Kimi and Lewis and events after that, so just speak about that."

Granted Kimi DNF'd the race but to me passing under yellows is dangerous, as was Lewis's mistake at Canada, Lewis was penalised with a 10 place grid drop for the next race yet Kimi gets nothing.

So you must be able to smell the inconsistancy and why I'm a little miffed by it all.

[obsessivecompulsive2]

I can clearly see the injustice of it all,but like i said before there;s not a great deal i can do about it!

As there are no higher powers than the FIA,nobody can change the decision but the FIA themselves,it seems "impartiality" is a word that;s been deleted from the FIA;s dictionary!

I think part of my sig says it all really(apologies if you find the profanity offensive)

[jonboy1066]

I think my sig makes it even clearer LOL

I've been trying for ages to work out what B****y means and still haven't grasped it LOL



* Edit * Oh I get it now LMAO (That's hardly profane)

[bringbacktheolddays]

If it takes Nikki Lauda to say its the Worst decesion in F1 then surley anyone with 1 Braincell can see that it is a SUSPECT call.

[obsessivecompulsive2]

I think my sig makes it even clearer LOL

I've been trying for ages to work out what B****y means and still haven't grasped it LOL



* Edit * Oh I get it now LMAO (That's hardly profane)
Your sig does make for a very clear picture!!!:p

ED1 doesnt like the swearing,neither do i really,but THAT governing body does make your blood boil sometimes!:mad:

[obsessivecompulsive2]

If it takes Nikki Lauda to say its the Worst decesion in F1 then surley anyone with 1 Braincell can see that it is a SUSPECT call.
Agreed,i;ve already said it,it;s an appalling decision,and really smacks of suspicion!!:rolleyes:

[CharlieJ]

This bit I clearly understand and I can see where you're coming from, and although it's probably not black and white in the rules over giving the place back it's always been understood that no advantage (be it time or track position) should be gained by such a cut.

Over the years drivers have been penalised for gaining such an advantage and drivers have been let off for giving the spot back so a precedent has been set, take Monza as an example, every year someone outbrakes themselves into turn 1 and takes to the escape road and almost every year some are allowed to get away with it and others aren't depending on whether they gained position or not.

The problem with Lewis's situation is whether he gained an advantage or not, some say yes, some say no I think that as he was off the throttle and completely behind Kimi at the line and going 6 km/h slower than kimi across the line then he had no advantage from taking to the escape road of the chicane. In fact I feel that he should be commended for avoiding a crash through his actions.

The only advantage I can see is that the track was getting wet and the McClarens work better in those conditions as they keep the temperatures in their tyres better than Ferraris so Kimi had to brake a lot earlier than Lewis into La Source which exaggerates the speed differential and apparent "Unfair" advantage which IMO is more to do with the weather than anyone's driving.

For the record I do not have any problem with Kimi's defence into "The Bus Stop" I think it was good fair and hard racing, but by defending in that manner Lewis had no choice but to take to the run off.

My problem is with the FIA's obvious inconsistancy, no complaint was made about Lewis's overtake, the investigation was done off of the stewards own backs,

Conversely
The Stewards and FIA have dsecided not to do anything about the matter of Kimi overtaking Lewis under yellow flags:

Granted Kimi DNF'd the race but to me passing under yellows is dangerous, as was Lewis's mistake at Canada, Lewis was penalised with a 10 place grid drop for the next race yet Kimi gets nothing.

So you must be able to smell the inconsistancy and why I'm a little miffed by it all.

That spells it out perfectly Jonboy. I couldn't possibly have put it better.

[SpeedRacer]

It was fair. He gained two advantages and got punished for it like he should.

[bringbacktheolddays]

It was fair. He gained two advantages and got punished for it like he should.
Why would someone like Niki Lauder say It was Unfair then?? :confused: and that Lewis did nothing wrong
If Someone can answer me that?

[BTCCROCKS]

I agree, that this penalty desicion will take a while for it to go away. Apologies on my earlier post. I hope the outcome of the appeal is successful

[SpeedRacer]

Why would someone like Niki Lauder say It was Unfair then?? :confused: and that Lewis did nothing wrong
If Someone can answer me that?
Sorry seems I am not allowed an opinion so I will leave this thread to you. Good Night.

[bringbacktheolddays]

and got punished for it like he should.
You make him sound like a criminal or something. :mad:

[Eunos]

Sorry seems I am not allowed an opinion so I will leave this thread to you. Good Night.

That's right, You don't race in Formula 1 remember? ;)

[bringbacktheolddays]

Sorry seems I am not allowed an opinion so I will leave this thread to you. Good Night.
Im giving my opioion to why you think its fair, and Niki Lauda thinks Lewis did nothing wrong?
A formula 1 legened saying its the worst decision in f1 history, there must be something wrong if it Creates a Knee jerk reaction like that. people don't say things Like that for Nothin, do they.

[VR6Steve]

It seems that he was damned whatever decision he made, have the accident and probably get some sort of grid drop for the next race or do the safe thing and take avoiding action.

Again I will say what is winding people up is the "apperent" favouritism towards Ferrari. Firstly Massa at Valencia in not applying the rules and now Kimi overtaking under yellows which could potentially have been catastrophic! :( :mad:

This whole incident is casting an even worse light than that which the FIA has been under the last few months.

It is supposed to be the world's premier motor racing series! The last couple of years have been full of nothing but controversy and disappointment and done nothing but tarnish its reputation.

[bringbacktheolddays]

It seems that he was damned whatever decision he made, have the accident and probably get some sort of grid drop for the next race or do the safe thing and take avoiding action.

Again I will say what is winding people up is the "apperent" favouritism towards Ferrari. Firstly Massa at Valencia in not applying the rules and now Kimi overtaking under yellows which could potentially have been catastrophic! :( :mad:

This whole incident is casting an even worse light than that which the FIA has been under the last few months.

It is supposed to be the world's premier motor racing series! The last couple of years have been full of nothing but controversy and disappointment and done nothing but tarnish its reputation.
Thats the bit that gets up my nose, In Valencia and Spa about 3 Gp2 drivers all get Drive through penaltys for dangerous realese from the pits, but Massa gets a fine. He should of had a drive through and Lewis would of won the race, then I might not of been as Narked after this appauling Decesion. Catch My drift??

[BTCCROCKS]

It seems that he was damned whatever decision he made, have the accident and probably get some sort of grid drop for the next race or do the safe thing and take avoiding action.

Again I will say what is winding people up is the "apperent" favouritism towards Ferrari. Firstly Massa at Valencia in not applying the rules and now Kimi overtaking under yellows which could potentially have been catastrophic! :( :mad:

This whole incident is casting an even worse light than that which the FIA has been under the last few months.

It is supposed to be the world's premier motor racing series! The last couple of years have been full of nothing but controversy and disappointment and done nothing but tarnish its reputation.
Spot on there. The last 2 years have been controversal. It needs to get it's act together, and fast

[Sparkz]

Spa GP thread Pt.2 :rolleyes:

[jonboy1066]

Very constructive there Sparkz :rolleyes:

This thread is for debate about the events and constructive conversation, not petty, smart Alec one liners. If you've got something constructive, educated and non argumentative to say then by all means, be my guest and go to the effort to type it and join the discussion.

[Sparkz]

Very constructive there Sparkz :rolleyes:

This thread is for debate about the events and constructive conversation, not petty, smart Alec one liners. If you've got something constructive, educated and non argumentative to say then by all means, be my guest and go to the effort to type it and join the discussion.

Trying to bait me in now.. Right? :rolleyes:

[jonboy1066]

Not at all, just encouraging you to join the discusion instead of trying to disrupt it.

[Sparkz]

Im not trying to disrupt anything.. Im just pointing out the exact same stuff is being said here as to apposed to what was being said on the already locked Spa GP thread.

There is still bitching over Ferrari's unsafe release with Massa at Valencia.

Everybody should be answering with a Yes, Its unfair or No, I thought it was fair within the regulations. And he deserved the penalty he recieved, No matter how harsh.

Im still amazed to see how Ferrari get critized in this this, Considering they have said a word or complained to the FIA. FIA picked up on it themselves and done what they feel was right.

[Mondeo2]

Can someone please find the regulations that govern gaining advantage by cutting a chicane, because I've looked and can't find it. When you find it please copy and paste the relevant section.
I've been watching F1 and other motorsport for years and anyone having to cut a chicane for what ever reason has conceded the position and not been penalised for it, so where is the ruling that says the place cannot be given back and a penalty given.
On the subject of inconsistencies, the only penalties that can be issued in a race are, a 10 second stop go penalty, a drive through penalty, a 25 second penalty if the reason for the penalty occurs within the last five laps of a race. The 10 place grid deficit ruling isn't mentioned in the regs, but if a driver fails to finish a race and needs to be penalised, I can understand that ruling, lastly and the ultimate, a black flag, your race is over. There is no mention in the regs., of fines for anything which occurs during a race. So how could Massa be fined for Valencia and not be given a drive through penalty. Lastly it is the FIA's ruling that the highest fine it can impose on a team or driver is $50,000, yet they fined McLaren $100,000.

Ive watched the footage over and over again, Lewis had the first apex of the chicane fair and square, Kimi defending the position for the second apex forced Lewis wide and so as not to crash into Kimi, cut across the run off area. Inevitably Lewis rejoined the track in front of Kimi, but backed off and let Kimi pass. This is the same as many drivers in the past, have been forced to do at many tracks in many years, it happens in the BTCC too, no one has been penalised if they have let the other car retake the position, so why should it happen now.

[mikeymike]

Ive watched the footage over and over again, Lewis had the first apex of the chicane fair and square, Kimi defending the position for the second apex forced Lewis wide and so as not to crash into Kimi, cut across the run off area. Inevitably Lewis rejoined the track in front of Kimi, but backed off and let Kimi pass. This is the same as many drivers in the past, have been forced to do at many tracks in many years, it happens in the BTCC too, no one has been penalised if they have let the other car retake the position, so why should it happen now.

i agree that it was unfair but you are wrong lewis didnt have the first apex at all he was level with kimi but certainly wasnt infront of him and yes i do think he was forced to cut the corner as kimi didnt give him any racing room. Just wish kimi hadnt crashed out the the passing under yellow would have made it even more interesting.

[Relaxin Mood]

Can someone please find the regulations that govern gaining advantage by cutting a chicane, because I've looked and can't find it. When you find it please copy and paste the relevant section.
I've been watching F1 and other motorsport for years and anyone having to cut a chicane for what ever reason has conceded the position and not been penalised for it, so where is the ruling that says the place cannot be given back and a penalty given.
On the subject of inconsistencies, the only penalties that can be issued in a race are, a 10 second stop go penalty, a drive through penalty, a 25 second penalty if the reason for the penalty occurs within the last five laps of a race. The 10 place grid deficit ruling isn't mentioned in the regs, but if a driver fails to finish a race and needs to be penalised, I can understand that ruling, lastly and the ultimate, a black flag, your race is over. There is no mention in the regs., of fines for anything which occurs during a race. So how could Massa be fined for Valencia and not be given a drive through penalty. Lastly it is the FIA's ruling that the highest fine it can impose on a team or driver is $50,000, yet they fined McLaren $100,000.

Ive watched the footage over and over again, Lewis had the first apex of the chicane fair and square, Kimi defending the position for the second apex forced Lewis wide and so as not to crash into Kimi, cut across the run off area. Inevitably Lewis rejoined the track in front of Kimi, but backed off and let Kimi pass. This is the same as many drivers in the past, have been forced to do at many tracks in many years, it happens in the BTCC too, no one has been penalised if they have let the other car retake the position, so why should it happen now.

Ok its easy to find all the regs on the FIA own website I will send you the link in a PM... And what he Lewis got his 25s Pen for.

[Mondeo2]

i agree that it was unfair but you are wrong lewis didnt have the first apex at all he was level with kimi but certainly wasnt infront of him and yes i do think he was forced to cut the corner as kimi didnt give him any racing room. Just wish kimi hadnt crashed out the the passing under yellow would have made it even more interesting.

I didn't say Lewis was in front I said he had the corner, he was more than 3/4 of a cars length alongside Kimi. Which means Kimi must concede the corner to Lewis.


Ok its easy to find all the regs on the FIA own website I will send you the link in a PM... And what he Lewis got his 25s Pen for.
Cheers, I just couldn't find anything relevant in the regs at the time.
But if you read section C of the appendix it says that drivers will not deliberately crowd other cars towards the inside or outside of a curve. As Lewis was already alongside Kimi, Kimi made the illegal move, forcing Lewis to take the escape route on the Chicane, this is not part of his overtaking manouvre, but a measure to avoid the accident that Kimi would have caused.

[jonboy1066]

Could you copy and paste section C of the appendix in to a post please, sounds interesting.

[Sparkz]

Published with permission from the Federation Internationale de l' Automobile.

Oh look, Not Ferrari Instant Assistance :rolleyes:


16) INCIDENTS
16.1 "Incident" means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any action by any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the stewards and referred to the race director for investigation) which:
- necessitated the suspension of a race under Articles 41;
- constituted a breach of these Sporting Regulations or the Code;
- caused a false start by one or more cars;
- caused a collision;
- forced a driver off the track;
- illegitimately prevented a legitimate overtaking manoeuvre by a driver;
- illegitimately impeded another driver during overtaking.
Unless it was completely clear that a driver was in breach of any of the above, any incidents involving more than one car will normally be investigated after the race.
16.2 a) It shall be at the discretion of the stewards to decide, upon a report or a request by the race director, if a driver or drivers involved in an incident shall be penalised.
b) If an incident is under investigation by the stewards a message informing all teams which driver or drivers are involved will be displayed on the timing monitors.
Provided that such a message is displayed no later than five minutes after the race has finished the driver or drivers concerned may not leave the circuit without the consent of the stewards.
16.3 The stewards may impose any one of three penalties on any driver involved in an Incident:
a) A drive-through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re-join the race without stopping;
b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop at his pit for at least ten seconds and then re-join the race.
c) a drop of ten grid positions at the driver's next Event.
However, should either of the penalties under a) and b) above be imposed during the last five laps, or after the end of a race, Article 16.4b) below will not apply and 25 seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned.
16.4 Should the stewards decide to impose either of the penalties under Article 16.3a) or b), the following procedure will be followed:
a) The stewards will give written notification of the penalty which has been imposed to an official of the team concerned and will ensure that this information is also displayed on the timing monitors.
b) From the time the stewards' decision is notified on the timing monitors the relevant driver may cover no more than three complete laps before entering the pit lane and, in the case of a penalty under Article 16.3b), proceeding to his garage where he shall remain for the period of the time penalty.
However, unless the driver was already in the pit entry for the purpose of serving his penalty, he may not carry out the penalty after the Safety Car has been deployed. Any laps carried out behind the Safety Car will be added to the three lap maximum.
Whilst a car is stationary in the pit lane as a result of incurring a time penalty it may not be worked on. However, if the engine stops it may be started after the time penalty period has elapsed.
c) When the time penalty period has elapsed the driver may rejoin the race.
d) Any breach or failure to comply with Articles 16.4b) or c) may result in the car being excluded.

Theres all regulations from the incidents appendix!

[jonboy1066]

Thanks and here's 3 things that Kimi did that the FIA aren't looking into but are all extenuating circumstances in defence of Lewis Hamilton:

- forced a driver off the track; Lewis had no option but to take to the escape road after Kimi's robust defence. (I personally don't have a problem with the way he defended but if the FIA want to get finiky about enforcing their own rules then that's definately one of them)


- illegitimately prevented a legitimate overtaking manoeuvre by a driver;Kimi did that by making more than one defensive swerve across the start finish straight in an attempt to defend his line into La Source


- illegitimately impeded another driver during overtaking. See both comments above


Not to mention Kimi overtalking under yellows.

But this is the bit I'm interested in:

drivers will not deliberately crowd other cars towards the inside or outside of a curve.

and I can't find it.

[VR6Steve]

They would seem to make a good defence case. :rolleyes: All of them would seem to make the penalty unfair.

Straying slightly off topic: I must say I did think Kimi's weaving was a bit odd. I thought drivers were only allowed to make 1 move across the track to defend? His defence looked like several moves.

[Sparkz]

The only reason they probably didnt give Kimi any penalties is because he crashed out and ended any real hope he had of the championship.

[jonboy1066]

The only reason they probably didnt give Kimi any penalties is because he crashed out and ended any real hope he had of the championship.

True

BUT

Passing under yellows is and always has been considered dangerous, that's why the yellow flags are there to warn drivers that they ned to slow down and be prepared to stop due to something up ahead.

Weaving to defend is cosidered dangerous which is why competetitors are only allowed to make one move to defend.

He may have DNF'd but that doesn't take away the fact that he commited at least two offenses that ammount to dangerous driving, and would also negate any percieved "advantage" gained by Hamilton's avoidance of a crash by going off track, and so IMO those offences should not go unpunished either.

In the case of a DNF and the inability to impose a time penalty on the race just gone it would be given out like Hamiltons was for his Canada mess up, by a fine, and a 10 place grid drop for the next round.

I would imagine that any enforcement of the rules should take into account the actual offences commited and not the championship position of the offender, however it seems appparent that instead they take into account the colour of the car involved.

[Mondeo2]

Could you copy and paste section C of the appendix in to a post please, sounds interesting.
Sorry it's a pdf file so won't copy and paste.
It's on the FIA site under F1 reg. in Appendix L Chapter IV Code of Driving Conduct on Circuits. Section 2 C.
You'll find it on page 16 of 17

[jonboy1066]

Thank you I'll have a look;)

[jonboy1066]

Great, found it now thank you, it says:


Manouvres liable to hinder other drivers such as premature changes of direction, more than one change of direction, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised

I think it's safe to say that Kimi did all 4 of those things, as well as passing under yellows.

To be fair I wouldn't be making a fuss about any of the 4 things in my quote that happened if I didn't feel that Lewis and McClaren were being persecuted as it made for a spectacular and nail biting end to what could have been a fairly boring race, but since the FIA seem so keen to penalise Lewis for what I saw as a crash avoidance manouvre rather than a deliberate and pre planned attempt at gaining a pass through putting himself out of position a corner before, I think it's only fair to point out the inequality and inconsistancy of the judgement.

[nealfan]

Sorry for my comment about this, the incident when kimi overtook under yellows, wouldn't this be made void when lewis left the track as kimi was still on the track, being lewis was part of the yellow flag as he was off the track?

[Sparkz]

I was thinking the same.
Lewis dived off the track and around Rosberg under "yellows". And Kimi stook to the track. So that makes 1 of those 4 forum imposed penalties null and void. ;)

[cxx666]

It was exceptionally unfair.

I'm far from a Ferrari fan and normally would have said Ferrari were throwing their toys out the pram but, from what I read on another well known site, even the team boss at Ferrari has said privately he thought the action was 'a little bit extreme'

So it seems the FIA have waded into yet another issue with their ridiculous and often inconsistent rullings and dished out something a little over the top.

I would probably have the same opinion had it been Massa or Raikkonen that had been cruelly robbed of a win like that, so its not even as if I can be accused of anti Ferrari bias

[Mondeo2]

I was thinking the same.
Lewis dived off the track and around Rosberg under "yellows". And Kimi stook to the track. So that makes 1 of those 4 forum imposed penalties null and void. ;)
If you watch the video on the itv site, the waved yellows are before the corner, Lewis is forced onto the kerb to avoid Rosberg, Raikkonen goes between the pair of them and it was this that forced Lewis off the track. So Kimi did overtake under yellows, it was only that he spun on the exit of the next bend that Lewis was able to retake the lead. If he hadn't spun would he have let Lewis have the position back? We'll never know.
I don't think Kimi deliberately forced Lewis off the track here, neither of them had anywhere else to go in the avoidance of an accident, exactly the same as the incident at the chicane.
There is a Massa comment on the ITV F1 website, he states that in driver briefings they are instructed to give a place back fully if they have to cut a chicane. To me "fully" means the whole of the car must be behind the car which they have inadvertantly overtook. This Lewis did, there is no regulation which says he cannot overtake again on the next bend. Kimi tried his best to resist by illegaly swerving twice, but then had to give up the place as there was little else he could do to defend his position.
Jackie Stewart has now asked for a permanent Stewards Team, about time too.

[BTCCROCKS]

If the FIA couldn't give Lewis the drive through Penalty. Wouldn't it have been better to make Lewis have a drive through at the Italian GP instead?

[Sparkz]

If the FIA couldn't give Lewis the drive through Penalty. Wouldn't it have been better to not give him a 25 second Penalty, but give him a drive though for the next GP?

Tbh that would make no sense :confused:
As a Ferrari fan (Massa, Not Raikkonen :p ) I myself think the "penalty" was over the top. He should have been given a 10-15 grid place penalty (at Monza) for his actions, And not a 25 second penalty.

[BTCCROCKS]

Tbh that would make no sense :confused:
As a Ferrari fan (Massa, Not Raikkonen :p ) I myself think the "penalty" was over the top. He should have been given a 10-15 grid place penalty (at Monza) for his actions, And not a 25 second penalty.
That's what I was saying

[Sparkz]

That's what I was saying

I may have edited my post just before you quoted it. I noticed I had said something wrong in my original post :p

[adzerrancoon]

It's a no brainer. Totally unfair. How many times does that happen throughout a season, and goes unpunished because the driver lets the other one back through, so negating any advantage. Its part of the reason I no longer watch f1 on a regular basis!

[topgear1]

everyone should view top gear's site and look at thier sunday afternoon club.

there is a video madde by a user which clearly shows raikknoen undertaking two defensive manovers on hamilton before they came to la source.

now forgive me if im wrong but fia rules say that only one defensive manouvere can be done.- and did kimi get penalised????

did he f***:mad:

[jonboy1066]

Thanks for that TG, I've just had a look at that breakdown and the author of it is absolutely right (IMO)

[bringbacktheolddays]

Thanks for that TG, I've just had a look at that breakdown and the author of it is absolutely right (IMO)
You should of put that thing on that shows who has voted. LOL
Its only going to be ferreri fans who say its fairn the even the Neutrals agree it was unfair so do 95% of realistic people. :D

[NoahsGirl]

Did I imagine it or did Kimi move over a couple of times on the straight after Eau Rouge? I remember watching that and thinking he should get into trouble for that.

As for the penalty, unless the stewards have information that we mortals will never have, they overdosed on the stupid pills. How could Lewis have had an advantage when he had to slow down to let Kimi back into the lead? Kimi was struggling on the harder set of tyres and was clearly being very defensive into La Source, so yes the Finn would have been slower than normal and Lewis just out braked him into the corner. Kimi was dodging and weaving into La Source, so it would have slowed Lewis down as well.

Utter madness.

[bringbacktheolddays]

there's now new evidence that Mclaren had been given the ok twice buy the FIA:mad: that Lewis's pass was ok and that they would of asked him to let passed kimi again if they said no it wasn't. I think its just a Conspricy theroy against Mcalarn.

[bringbacktheolddays]

there's now new evidence that Mclaren had been given the ok twice buy the FIA:mad: that Lewis's pass was ok and that they would of asked him to let passed kimi again if they said no it wasn't. I think its just a Conspricy theroy against Mcalarn.
Its on WWW.Autosport.Com

[jonboy1066]

A couple of interesting articles there. Good to see that the appeal is going to go ahead, (even though it'll probably be brushed under the scarlet carpet with a big red coloured broom)

[Sparkz]

The more regular posters here had their say and I don't wish to try and sway anyones descisions or start another messy thread.

No need to post at length or start another argument, just vote one way or the other.

I take it that didnt work :p

[jonboy1066]

Not seen much in the way of arguing here Sparkz so I'd say it's working well. In fact the last couple of pages are full of interesting facts, good news articles, and great input from the members of this forum.

[Sparkz]

"Immediately after the podium ceremony, we knew the incident was under investigation and my first reaction was to find out what had actually happened, as I didn't see it when I was on the track," he commented.

"What Lewis did is the sort of thing that can happen, but I think he was maybe a bit too optimistic in thinking he could just hand back the position, albeit only partially, to Kimi and then immediately try and pass him again.

"Incidents like this have often been discussed in the official driver briefings, when it has been made absolutely clear that anyone cutting a chicane has to fully restore the position and also any other eventual advantage gained. If Lewis had taken the chicane correctly, he would never have been able to pass Kimi on the very short straight that follows it. That was my immediate opinion after seeing the replay.

Found that on the net ;)

[jonboy1066]

Yeah I saw that too, but it's hard to take seriously after all he would say that wouldn't he.

As much as I like Massa you can't expect his judgement not to be clouded, after all, he was given the win and along with it the best chance of a crack at the championship he's had all season, and the highest possibilty of Kimi being told to support him in his fight so he's hardly going to say that Lewis's pass was fair and his result should stand is he?

[topgear1]

there is also another vid on TG's site and it's onboard footage from lewis and kimi's car regarding the incident at the bus stop- it really provides 100% proof that lewis had no where else to go other than causing an accidnet.

[laurat]

i don't see why any of it had to happen at all to be honest - if lewis could have just disciplined himself for a bit more and stayed in second, he would have won anyway cos kimi crashed out ... i think it's all been blown out of proportion ... far too much me thinks.

[obsessivecompulsive2]

i don't see why any of it had to happen at all to be honest - if lewis could have just disciplined himself for a bit more and stayed in second, he would have won anyway cos kimi crashed out ... i think it's all been blown out of proportion ... far too much me thinks.
There was no saying Kimi would have crashed out,he was under pressure from the quicker McLaren,but the gap was still relatively big,plus it had started to rain,so both drivers lap times would have been substantially slower.

However Lewis is there to win races,perhaps in hindsight settling for second would have been the safe option,maybe then this thread wouldn;t exist,as no penalty would have been applied,and Kimi may have crashed out and handed the win to Lewis anyway!

[laurat]

There was no saying Kimi would have crashed out,he was under pressure from the quicker McLaren,but the gap was still relatively big,plus it had started to rain,so both drivers lap times would have been substantially slower.

However Lewis is there to win races,perhaps in hindsight settling for second would have been the safe option,maybe then this thread wouldn;t exist,as no penalty would have been applied,and Kimi may have crashed out and handed the win to Lewis anyway!
i wish this thread didn't exist - i know i don't have to post it in and don't have to read it but it's like an annoying magnet which is never going to stop by the sounds of it :)

[jonboy1066]

there is also another vid on TG's site and it's onboard footage from lewis and kimi's car regarding the incident at the bus stop- it really provides 100% proof that lewis had no where else to go other than causing an accidnet.

Definately, it's great onboard footage and viewed under different circumstances I would have really enjoyed it but you're absolutely right TG, not only does it prove that Hamilton had no choice but to cut the chicane, it also proves that no advantage was gained after and no slip stream or tow was picked up, add to that the obvious proof on the same vid that Kimi definately DID get a very big advantage from his use of the run off on the outside of Pouhon which was enough to give him the run and no choice but to pass under the yellow flags in Piff Paff.


IMO The wrong guy has definately been punished, although I'd rather no-one recieved any penalties for Spa it was a great race ruined by politics and persecution and was turned from being one of the best advertisments for F1 in years into one of the worst examples of poor organisation ever and a complete laughing stock.

[Mondeo2]

i wish this thread didn't exist - i know i don't have to post it in and don't have to read it but it's like an annoying magnet which is never going to stop by the sounds of it :)
When there is a gross injustice, people will feel strongly about it and want to vent their feelings about it. As regards to it ending, that may well happen along with everything else at 8:30 this morning.:eek:

[jonboy1066]

What happened at 08:30 this morning? All I can see is reports that the intention to appeal has been lodged and that the appeal is most likely to be heard between the Italian and Singapore GP's

[VR6Steve]

When there is a gross injustice, people will feel strongly about it and want to vent their feelings about it. As regards to it ending, that may well happen along with everything else at 8:30 this morning.:eek:

Ha Ha, yes I heard the news this morning about the "experiment". It may well all end in a black hole this morning! :eek: (Could the FIA head quarters be moved above the tunnel by then in case one does appear :D )

Back on topic. There is some very interesting info coming out.

[jonboy1066]

Ha Ha, yes I heard the news this morning about the "experiment". It may well all end in a black hole this morning! :eek: (Could the FIA head quarters be moved above the tunnel by then in case one does appear :D )

Back on topic. There is some very interesting info coming out.

Oh That! LOL Thanks for the light relief. Well we're still here and so (unfortunately) is the FIA. What a shame:D

[marshal-beej]

The regs do not allow the place to be given back, so therefore Lewis gained a brief advantage and continued to have an advantage once he gave the position back. The stewards found him guilty of that and punished him as the regs stated...25secs on his time.

It's just lucky really that is was during the last 5 laps as he could've been given a grid place drop for Monza.

It's a shame it happened that way as those last few laps were stunning work for both Kimi and Lewis to keep the car in a straight line on slicks in the wet.

Roll on Monza I say! :)


I agree that there is no rule to allow you to give the place back, precedence has allowed it, if you look back to the incident with Alonso and Klien a couple of years ago the stewards even admitted that they had not seen Alonso give back the place and asked him to give the place back again and then sent a letter of apology. I do not think it is fair to change the interpretation of the rules on a whim and without any warning. If they wanted to be consistent about it they should have also investigated KR for gaining an advantage for running wide at Pouhon. The rules state that the driver should stay within the confines of the circuit that is defined by solid white lines, they make no differentiation between cutting a corner or running wide.
Unfortunately with the light punishment on Massa at Valencia ( an offense that could have had a more dangerous outcome) the FIA are appearing to be bias. Everyone said at the time it would not have been fair to hand Hamilton the victory when he was not on the pace of Massa all race but it seems ok to hand Massa the victory when he was nowhere near contention. If there was to be any benefit to any driver due to the reported offense the benefit should have gone to KR who could not take it due to crashing out.

[Mondeo2]

I agree that there is no rule to allow you to give the place back, precedence has allowed it, if you look back to the incident with Alonso and Klien a couple of years ago the stewards even admitted that they had not seen Alonso give back the place and asked him to give the place back again and then sent a letter of apology. I do not think it is fair to change the interpretation of the rules on a whim and without any warning. If they wanted to be consistent about it they should have also investigated KR for gaining an advantage for running wide at Pouhon. The rules state that the driver should stay within the confines of the circuit that is defined by solid white lines, they make no differentiation between cutting a corner or running wide.
Unfortunately with the light punishment on Massa at Valencia ( an offense that could have had a more dangerous outcome) the FIA are appearing to be bias. Everyone said at the time it would not have been fair to hand Hamilton the victory when he was not on the pace of Massa all race but it seems ok to hand Massa the victory when he was nowhere near contention. If there was to be any benefit to any driver due to the reported offense the benefit should have gone to KR who could not take it due to crashing out.

Although it does not appear in the regs., that a driver must concede the position if he should cut a chicane and overtake by rejoining the track, Massa has said that in the drivers briefings that is exactly what they are told to do. I would have thought race stewards would have to at these briefings and therefore aware of this "unwritten" ruling.

Glad we're all still here and ok. Can we have a roll call please and everyone check in. :D

[marshal-beej]

Although it does not appear in the regs., that a driver must concede the position if he should cut a chicane and overtake by rejoining the track, Massa has said that in the drivers briefings that is exactly what they are told to do. I would have thought race stewards would have to at these briefings and therefore aware of this "unwritten" ruling.

Glad we're all still here and ok. Can we have a roll call please and everyone check in. :D


My point exactly it has been allowed before, in fact it is a well known unwritten rule that is followed all the way from club racing up. I am furious at the new interpretation of the rules that even Charlie Whiting did not know about.

[jonboy1066]

Although it may not make much difference to the outcome of any descision the petition is gathering momentum, it's all over various F1 websites and has made it as far as many news sites as of now (15:56) it's at 38,000 signatures and still growing at a rate of over 20 signatures a minute (from 15:57 to 15:58 one refresh saw the number of sigs grow by 24 & 25 in the following minute):)

[bringbacktheolddays]

Although it may not make much difference to the outcome of any descision the petition is gathering momentum, it's all over various F1 websites and has made it as far as many news sites as of now (15:56) it's at 38,000 signatures and still growing at a rate of over 20 signatures a minute (from 15:57 to 15:58 one refresh saw the number of sigs grow by 24 & 25 in the following minute):)
The poll is 72% Unfair against the 28% of Ferreri fans :p No Surprise there then :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Jonsey Fan]

The poll is 72% Unfair against the 28% of Ferreri fans :p No Surprise there then :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Mmmmmm wander wat the out come might have been on an Italian forum ???? ;) lol

[bringbacktheolddays]

Mmmmmm wander wat the out come might have been on an Italian forum ???? ;) lol
I wouldn't have a clue ;)

[jonboy1066]

Here's a brilliant piece written by Gilles Richards:


It was back in 1976 that I started watching formula one. It's one of my earliest memories, or at least one of the few to have stayed with me into my late thirties. I can vaguely remember James Hunt winning the championship that year but what has remained absolutely crystal clear since then is how completely I fell in love with the sport. Everything about it was thrilling – the excitement, the speed, the colour, the indescribable noise – it was as if it had been designed specifically for me.

After each race I'd unpack my battered and chipped collection of Dinky cars and re-enact the action. No matter that there wasn't a formula one car among them (a Mini and a flat-bed truck, of all things, were at the front of most races ...) the racing fired my imagination so much that it just didn't matter. I've been following it ever since and the toys have just become better – right up to the ultimate big-boy treat of going to watch several races a year. It was destined, it seemed, to be a life-long love affair.

Until now. The farce that followed last Sunday's Belgian grand prix may mean it's finally time for F1 and me to part company. There's no point re-hashing the details of what happened, fans have been all over the story since it broke, but my reaction to the news on Sunday night was disbelief, which quickly turned to anger.

Frankly I feel like F1 owes me: I sat through the endless, processional races of the Schumacher era, I spent a fortune on tickets (and it is a fortune – there's little change out of £300 for the average weekend), I watched as everything that had made the sport exciting was slowly bled out of it, as cars became incapable of overtaking one another (anyone else remember David Coulthard doing an entire stint behind Enrique Bernoldi's Arrows at Monaco for 43 interminable laps in 2001?) and the racing more and more conservative.

Then, finally, a driver arrives with the skill and balls-out guts not seen since Ayrton Senna to re-invigorate the sport and how do they reward us? He is punished for inexplicable reasons, while doing exactly what the fans have been crying out for. And it is inexplicable. The stewards involved don't have to explain themselves to anyone who wants to question their decision, which ranges from us – the miserable, mug punters - to Niki Lauda (who came back from horrific burns in that summer of '76 to continue competing in the sport he loved), telling Five Live on Monday that previously he'd thought of claims of bias against specific teams as "bull***t".

Not any more. As Niki continued: "But the decision yesterday makes me believe that everyone is watching Ferrari in a positive way and McLaren in a very negative way." He's right of course, and the word "bull***t" sums up the current situation perfectly – if the bull in question has been fed on a concentrated horses**t diet for six months and then had a dogs**t enema.

Where's the consistency? Ferrari received merely a fine for their 'unsafe' pit lane release at Valencia while both there, and at Spa, GP2 drivers received drive-throughs for almost identical incidents. And that's just the past two races - it's too tedious to drag up all the ways the rules seem to have been applied arbitrarily to different teams over the years. Is it not enough that the current regulations of F1 make it arcane to the point of indecipherability to the average viewer, that they can't at least be applied uniformly?

1976 also heralded the arrival of another of my passions (albeit some years later) – as punk rock cut an invigorating swathe across a moribund music industry wallowing in smug self-satisfaction. Sound familiar? Two years later a jaded and disillusioned Johnny Rotten stared into the crowd for the final Pistols performance at the Winter Ballroom in San Francisco and asked: "Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?"

Well, now I know exactly what he meant. And F1 needs to address this nonsense before I, and thousands like me, put away our toys and say goodbye forever.

About this articleClose Giles Richards: Why I fell out of love with formula one
This article was first published on guardian.co.uk on Wednesday September 10 2008. It was last updated at 15:08 on September 10 2008.


I've edited the swearing but it very much sums up how I feel about all of this in much better ways than I could've explained. I too remember Sunday afternoons as a child mimiking events of that days race with my toy cars and these days enjoy watching my son do the same.

It's not just Lewis Hamilton and McClaren who have been unjustly punished by this bad descision.......it's us.........the fans (even the Ferrari ones) as it seems that the FIA want to discourage overtaking leaving us back into the bad old Schumacher era of processional races as the competitors will now be araid to even attempt to overtake Red cars all over again.

Also Ferrari have been unjustly punished too, after all who will take Felipe Massa seriously as a real champion if he does end up winning the championship by the points margin that would be the difference between making this dodgy descision and not making it.

*Surely if the FIA are such complete sticklers to the rules then Lewis Hamilton is already the defending world Champion after the mess in Brazil last year, had BMW and Williams been given the penalty that should have been applied for their cheating with the fuel then Hamilton would have been champion anyway*

*Not that I or anyone else would want to see that as it would have been very bad for the sport but as the FIA seem so keen to wreck the sport anyway I thought I'd just bring that one up.

[laurat]

When there is a gross injustice, people will feel strongly about it and want to vent their feelings about it. As regards to it ending, that may well happen along with everything else at 8:30 this morning.:eek:
well, it's now 18:08pm and we're still here ... so much for the 'big bang' theory eh?

[Mondeo2]

well, it's now 18:08pm and we're still here ... so much for the 'big bang' theory eh?
Looks like it could be a bit drawn out, some scientists reckon it could take four months before any effects are noticed. Including changes in the weather. I did notice a strange light in the sky that I vaguely remember seeing once before. lol.

[jonboy1066]

Even Pat Symmonds has critisised the penalty now:



Pat Symonds fears that Lewis Hamilton's Belgian GP penalty, which cost him the victory, has hurt more than just the McLaren driver's Championship campaign.


Hamilton clinched the victory in Spa on Sunday afternoon, however, two hours later was informed that he had been handed a 25-second penalty by the stewards for gaining a speed advantage by cutting a chicane.


The stewards deemed the advantage to have helped Hamilton overtake Kimi Raikkonen and therefore handed him a retrospective drive-through penalty, which dropped him to third in the overall race classification.


The penalty has already been lambasted by many in the media with former F1 driver Niki Lauda claiming it was the "worst decision in F1's history."


This is a sentiment echoed by Renault's director of engineering Pat Symonds who fears it could have a negative impact on F1 racing as drivers opt for caution instead of overtaking.


"As it happened in real time, we were talking on the intercom and said: 'Wow that was definitely a situation where he has to give the place back,'" he told Renault's latest podcast.


"I guess we weren't that surprised when the stewards were found to be investigating it. Having looked at it again, I feel very, very sorry for Lewis. I think he has been very hard done by.


"It raises lots of interesting questions, and I am not talking about 'Are the FIA on the side of Ferrari?' We have to believe that they are impartial, the sport would not exist if we didn't believe that.


"But I think it does call into question (the sport's) philosophy, because everyone is saying we need more overtaking in Formula One, we need more excitement, and we need more personalities.


"And yet it seems to me that everything that actually happens seems to be against that.


"Here we had a great race with people really challenging each other and for why? If it's taken away, then why take that risk?"


The Renault man added that in his opinion Hamilton did every thing right after cutting the chicane as he lifted off the power, allowing Raikkonen to retake the lead.


"To me the facts are quite clear in retrospect. I have had a look at the videos, I've had a look at the published data which shows that Lewis was nearly 7 km/h slower than Raikkonen across the line, you can quite clearly see on the in-car camera that he lets him get completely in front, and in my view Raikkonen just braked very early," Symonds added.


"Lewis went inside him, and if you look at the in-car camera stuff, Lewis drove around the hairpin very easily. He didn't have a big slide, he didn't have to correct it, he hadn't gone in too deep and come out wide, it was a perfectly legitimate manouevre, and it wasn't that much later that Raikkonen went past him.


"This is racing, this is what we want."


As for the stewards' decision being made two hours after the race had been completed and all the fans had gone home, Symonds reckons something needs to be done in order to ensure that decisions are made promptly.


"I think motor racing should be like football, not like cricket," he said. "Let's have action, let's know what is going on in real time, not wait for two days to find out the result."


This weekend is certainly going to be interesting what with Monza being famous for drivers cutting chicanes and giving places back on almost every lap. If the FIA want to be seen to be consistant it's not inconcieveable that after this weekends race every car in the field will have 25 seconds added to their time (apart from the red ones) So we could end up with a completely different finishing order to the one we witness as the cars cross the finish line.

One thing's for sure Lewis need to make sure that not only does he beat the Ferraris at every race from now on but he needs to beat them by at least 25 seconds at each race if he is to stay ahead in the championship.:rolleyes:

[Kathryn]

i would definately say unfair it seems the name formula 1 is going to ferarri 1. every thing that happens seems to be beneficial to ferrari nothing was done about ferrari being released early from the pits but in gp2 a team was penalised for this and im sure ferrari have had a similar incident to what lewis did over the weekend and got let off with it.glad Mclaren are appealin it there was no way lewis even gained 25 second advantage there

[BTCCROCKS]

Even Charlie Whiting was saying that Lewis didn't gain an advantage. I think the FIA should listen to him, rather than some stewards, who don't have a clue what there doing IMO

[Eunos]

Suprise Suprise Mr Alonso think's the Penalty was well deserved :rolleyes:

[bringbacktheolddays]

Suprise Suprise Mr Alonso think's the Penalty was well deserved :rolleyes:
Main Headline on front cover of autosport today- IS F1 FIXED? Answer yes!!

[laurat]

Suprise Suprise Mr Alonso think's the Penalty was well deserved :rolleyes:
i'm liking it!

[Eunos]

i'm liking it!

He likes you too (k)

[Eunos]

Main Headline on front cover of autosport today- IS F1 FIXED? Answer yes!!

Their only just figuring this out now.

I sometime's think F1 is more scripted than WWE 0.-

[laurat]

He likes you too (k)
yeah yeah i wish! anyway back on topic now - i still think the penalty should still stand. end of conversation ...

[Eunos]

yeah yeah i wish! anyway back on topic now - i still think the penalty should still stand. end of conversation ...


and i don't think it should, But im willing to agree to Disagree ;)

[bringbacktheolddays]

yeah yeah i wish! anyway back on topic now - i still think the penalty should still stand. end of conversation ...
75% Disagree with you and so does the Whole of autosport and Motorsport news :p

[laurat]

75% Disagree with you and so does the Whole of autosport and Motorsport news :p
yeah well, i always like to be different :)

[simon1220]

Main Headline on front cover of autosport today- IS F1 FIXED? Answer yes!!

Goes well with Motorsport news front page main headline yesterday - FORMULA FARCE!

[Beemer Fan]

Being a Ferrari fan i'd say fair! And it makes the championship more interesting (for a change) now.

[simon1220]

Being a Ferrari fan i'd say fair! And it makes the championship more interesting (for a change) now.

Typical Ferrari Fan :rolleyes:

[laurat]

Typical Ferrari Fan :rolleyes:
Of course :rolleyes:

[nealfan]

Typical Ferrari Fan :rolleyes:

Yep, would you expect anything else. :D

[jonboy1066]

:rolleyes: Tsch :rolleyes:

Shame these Ferrari fans can't be racing fans, take of the Scarlet Tinted glasses and see the incident for what it was.............Great Racing, a great climax to the race and a long awaited treat that was snatched away from us by clear corruption and bias:rolleyes:

[Eunos]

:rolleyes: Tsch :rolleyes:

Shame these Ferrari fans can't be racing fans, take of the Scarlet Tinted glasses and see the incident for what it was.............Great Racing, a great climax to the race and a long awaited treat that was snatched away from us by clear corruption and bias:rolleyes:

Ofcourse had it Been Massa or Raikkonen who had Received that Penalty, Than Suddenly *GASP* It wouldnt be fair anymore would it :cool: ;)

[jonboy1066]

I think that if anyone had recieved a penalty for that it would be a gross injustice (even Alonso):D

But yeah I could see certain blinkered members of this forum causing an outcry if (by some weird parallel universe jump) the Ferrari's recieved an unjust penalty like McClaren have.

[Eunos]

But than again they could probably get away with Murder and the FIA would turn a Blank eye :D

I've tried to lay off the Ferrari Hating but damn this doesnt make it Easy.

Nevermind there's another Grand Prx this Weekend, Let's see how things go -.0

[Sparkz]

Ofcourse had it Been Massa or Raikkonen who had Received that Penalty, Than Suddenly *GASP* It wouldnt be fair anymore would it :cool: ;)

Im a Ferrari fan. But I thought the penalty was unfair. :confused:
He should have been given a grid drop for Monza and not the 25 sec penalty

[nealfan]

:rolleyes: Tsch :rolleyes:

Shame these Ferrari fans can't be racing fans, take of the Scarlet Tinted glasses and see the incident for what it was.............Great Racing, a great climax to the race and a long awaited treat that was snatched away from us by clear corruption and bias:rolleyes:

Im a ferrari fan, and I don't think the punishment was fair. If he was guilty of taking an advantage the penalty doesn't fit the crime. He wouldn't have been given a drive through if it happened earlier on in the race. The person at fault is charlie whiting, he told mclaren that lewis had done the right thing, but he still told the stewards to investigate. Yes I do want Massa to be closer in the championship, but not this way.

With your comment about Scarlet Tinted glasses, thats out of order. Way out of order! :rolleyes: Its just like when Mclaren were found guilty to having ferrari dossier, they were fined and had they're championship points taken off them for the whole season, and yet ferrari are to blame. How is this?! The penalty fit the crime.

Lewis is a great driver but he knows it, telling everyone. Thats not racing.

[jonboy1066]

My comment about the Scarlet tinted glasses is not aimed at all Fezza fans, some of them actually do know something about motorsport and enjoy a good race and many thousands of them have signed the petition which is now over 55,000 signatures.

The Ferrari Fans that get up my nose and the ones I'm talking about are the ones who quite blatently say.

"I think the penalty is fair because I'm a Ferrari fan and I don't like Hamilton because my Mum's, Best mate's, Brother's dog used to go to a Vet that also looked after Hamilton's hamster when he was 3 and they said he was a horrible child"

That's just pathetic. They don't actually care for the racing or the sport or for justice, they just want to see Hamilton penalised because they don't like him.

The only driver in the championship I dislike is Alonso and I don't go about thinking that he should be penalised just because I don't like him (although I may joke about it)

I do like Fellipe and Kimi and although I dislike Ferrari as a team, I appreciate that they didn't give Lewis the unfair penalty.

And as for last years nonsense that is just that.........nonsense, all teams have had secret information on other teams since grand Prix racing began, it was nothing special that McClaren had some info on Ferrari and was proven that they didn't use any of it, I'm sure if you dig deep enough Ferrari will also have a lot of info on McClaren (they had documents on Renaults Mass Dampers but couldn't make it work so the FIA changed the rules for them :rolleyes: ) But that's off topic and not for this thread.

[Mondeo2]

Thing is after Massa pit lane indescretion and now this, it looks like it is all about Ferrari winning at what ever cost and preventing Lewis/McLaren from doing so. For that we can thank the race stewards.
I wanted Lewis to win last year, but as the politcis got involved and even though there was no evidence of Ferrari on the McLaren, it would still have been said by some that Lewis and McLaren had won by cheating. I still think McLaren and Lewis threw it deliberately to save winning under controversy. Now the same is happening again this year.
Although I strongly feel that Hamilton and McLaren have been cheated out of points yet again, deep down I hope that they don't get the decision turned around and points reinstated, so that Lewis can still win without them.
Drivers are allowed to bend the rules occassionaly so long as it isn't too much and it makes the racing more exciting and interesting. Then when decisions like this are taken, it brings in the politics and taints the racing.
Keep politics out of sport stop spoiling it for the viewers (for without viewers/spectators the sport means nothing) and lets get on with the racing.

[nealfan]

Hamilton's penalty was very harsh. Alot of drivers have said he deserves a penalty but not as harsh as the current one. Grid drop for monza would be enough. I would like Massa to win the championship because hes an outstanding guy, hes worked very hard. But I wouldn't be unhappy if Hamilton were to win the title, 1stly because hes british and 2ndly he will be achieving a new record, beating alonso's record of the youngest world champion

[cxx666]

all those Ferrari fans who say they think Hamilton was unfairly punnished arent true ferrari fans ;)

do we know yet when the appeal will be heard?

[nealfan]

The appeal is going to be 22nd september

[cxx666]

cool thanks

[topgear1]

i know nothing will come of mclren appeal.

and the best way for mclaren to appeal is to go and get a 1-2 at monza!!!!!!!!!!!

[nealfan]

i know nothing will come of mclren appeal.

and the best way for mclaren to appeal is to go and get a 1-2 at monza!!!!!!!!!!!

Keep your hopes up, im sure he will get the win back

[simon1220]

Keep your hopes up, im sure he will get the win back

Theres no chance of the appeal succeeding and they shouldnt focus on that and just focus on Monza and getting a win there.

[ash1751]

Theres no chance of the appeal succeeding and they shouldnt focus on that and just focus on Monza and getting a win there.

if they do get a win their they'll probably end up getting a penalty of some kind that the fia will think up:rolleyes:

[topgear1]

if they do get a win their they'll probably end up getting a penalty of some kind that the fia will think up:rolleyes:

just turning up at monza will get a 10,000 euro fine.

and everyone in the team will end up gettinga parking ticket from mr max 'spanker ' mosely

[laurat]

The appeal is going to be 22nd september
yip and we all know the outcome already ;)

[simon1220]

just turning up at monza will get a 10,000 euro fine.

and everyone in the team will end up gettinga parking ticket from mr max 'spanker ' mosely

Plus a average £5,000 fine for every lap Hamilton completes!

[jonboy1066]

THE PLOT THICKENS




Fresh doubts about the legitimacy of the decision to strip Lewis Hamilton of his victory in Belgium have been cast after it emerged that Alan Donnelly, the official representative of FIA President Max Mosley at grands prix, conducted the interrogation of the McLaren driver at Spa and led the stewards' investigation.


The news is bound to send conspiracy theorists into overdrive because, as well as working for the FIA, Donnelly is the Executive Chairman of a Sovereign Strategy, a company that lists both the FIA and Formula One Management Ltd among its clients. It has previously boasted of working for Ferrari but has since removed the announcement from the client list on their website. According to The Daily Mail, the FIA confirmed the company worked with the Italian manufacturers' road car division, though not the F1 team on Thursday night.


While there is no suggestion on these pages that Mr Donnelly is anything but an impartial judge, the decision to retrospectively impose a drive-through penalty against Hamilton promoted Ferrari Felipe Massa to first place and cut Hamilton's lead of the World Championship from eight points to just two.


It was reported in June that, having taken the place of retiring permanent steward Tony Scott-Andrews to act as an 'administrator' of the stewards, it was Donnelly who 'led' the stewards when they punished Hamilton with a drive-through penalty during the French GP.


Speaking to the media from the sanctuary of McLaren's motorhome on Thursday, Hamilton confirmed that when he was summoned to appear in front of the stewards, "I only spoke to one person and none of the others had any questions for me."

Such is the sensitivity surrounding Donnelley's position that, when specifically asked whether it was the FIA consultant who questioned him, Hamilton would only nod confirmation.


Donnelly has refused to comment and his name did not appear on the press release announcing Hamilton's demotion that was signed off by the three race stewards of Nicholas Deschaux, Surinder Thatthi and Yves Bacquelaine.


According to Times correspondent Ed Gorman, Donnelley's integral involvement in the hearing is at 'odds with the initial assessment of Donnelly's role by an FIA spokesman who implied that Donnelly was not directly involved and had been mainly concerned with making sure the process was carried out efficiently and within a reasonable timeframe.'


Meanwhile, the suitability of Thatthi as a steward has been questioned again after he boasted to Kenyan newspaper that, following Hamilton's controversial punishment, "The British press hates me, but I can walk into any Italian restaurant... Italians love me."


According to The Independent newspaper, 'It was recommended last year that Thathi, who represents Kenya on the ruling FIA World Council, should not be chosen again as a steward.'


Especially this bit:


Meanwhile, the suitability of Thatthi as a steward has been questioned again after he boasted to Kenyan newspaper that, following Hamilton's controversial punishment, "The British press hates me, but I can walk into any Italian restaurant... Italians love me."

[topgear1]

i saw that too about the steward who said he could 'walk into any italian restaurant and get a free meal' !!!!!

[ash1751]

This just isn't motrosport anymore, there's no point of racing in f1 with all this going on.

[CharlieJ]

If this was in a novel or film everyone would say it's too unbelievable :rolleyes:

[simon1220]

Boycott the damn sport!

[laurat]

if it had been any other driver, would you all be going on in the same way for them?
don't you think you lot should start to calm down. come on guys, you don't know ... they may give him his points back at the hearing. :)

[Mondeo2]

if it had been any other driver, would you all be going on in the same way for them?
don't you think you lot should start to calm down. come on guys, you don't know ... they may give him his points back at the hearing. :)
I'd be going on the same way for any of the drivers. A championship needs to be won on the track not because of dodgy decisions made by race stewards which could be later turned around. Last years championship was spoilt by the actions of a few employees from teams yet no team involvement was proved, nor evidence of one teams technology on another teams car.
I still believe that Lewis and McLaren threw last years championship because they wanted Lewis to win it clean without anything to put doubt in peoples minds. Now the same is beginning to happen again. I hope Lewis doesn't get his points back and goes on to win the championship without them. If he doesn't he doesn't, then in lots of peoples eyes Massa will have won it by default, just as I feel Kimi did last year.

[simon1220]

Looking the poll, this must be the most talked about topic ever, ive never seen 55 votes in any other poll on the forum!!

[topgear1]

if it had been any other driver, would you all be going on in the same way for them?
don't you think you lot should start to calm down. come on guys, you don't know ... they may give him his points back at the hearing. :)

this has nothing to do with hamilton- it's the fact that he is in a championship battle.

now you know i dont really like hamilton but i think the way he has been treated is very wrong- and i dont really intend to stop moaning until i hear the outcome of the appeal.

at which point i am likely to be given more reasons to moan about.......:D

[SpeedRacer]

LMAO 3 quarters of the field say if hamilton had followed Kimi through the corner he wouldnt of even been close enough to make the pass at the next corner. So that means he did gain an advantage, penalty fair enough said good bye.

[Mondeo2]

The drivers have now been briefed that they have to wait till after the next bend if the should gain an advantage by cutting a chicane.
People claim Lewis would never have been able to overtake Kimi by following him around the bend instead of cutting the chicane. If you watch the on board footage before the chicane, Lewis was lapping alot quicker than Kimi and caught him in no time. Lewis had far superior grip to Kimi and I reckon would have still nailed him before the next bend. That is of course if he could have negotiated the second bend of the bus stop without Kimi taking him out.
Martin Brundle has never heard of the wait till after the next bend ruling and neither has Lauda.

[topgear1]

LMAO 3 quarters of the field say if hamilton had followed Kimi through the corner he wouldnt of even been close enough to make the pass at the next corner. So that means he did gain an advantage, penalty fair enough said good bye.


because they are all biased- ill beleive jackie stewart and niki lauda who dont hold any allienge to anyone so dont need to follow the beliefs of a certain team.

[kezbabybabe]

I was surprised to see how hard Kimi braked for the corner! The onboard footage showed that Lewis needed to move out of the way to avoid an accident.

[simon1220]

I was surprised to see how hard Kimi braked for the corner! The onboard footage showed that Lewis needed to move out of the way to avoid an accident.

Exactly, so had he not move out the way he would have hit the back of him, and then got punished for causing an 'unavoidable' accident. So instead of avoiding an accident he took the neccesary safety precautions and got punished anyway.

[kezbabybabe]

nods in agreement. I think Mark Blundell said it best when referring to another incident were a different ferrari driver didn't get penalised for a similar incident, as it also involved a McLaren car.

[xsara170]

i think it was made worse by the fact that kimi braked so early for the hair pin it made it look worse same as he braked really eary for the chicane it was unfair

[Sparkz]

How is braking early for a chichane unfair? :confused:

[topgear1]

How is braking early for a chichane unfair? :confused:

because lewis had to take avoiding action which is why they ended up going round the chicane side by side.