BTCC & Champ Cars

[Rob Watton]

I attended the BTCC at Brands in May and was extremely disappointed the race day had been merged with the Champ cars.

The champ car race was to say the least a boring parade of cars for 2 hours or more, noisy and smelly.

The £40 entrance fee was a disgrace (even dig turpin wore a mask when he robbed people).

The normal fee of £20-£25 at every other circuit is excellent value for money.

I do not know what other think but I got the impression that the BTCC was used to increase the circuit audience as the Champ car was not going to fill the circuit.

If the champ cars are back again later in the year when the BTCC visits Brands again, I will seriously consider attending.

Last year the two visits to Brands was excellent with the GP circuit used one visit and the indy the other.

Please, Please, Please, Please TOCA don't put the BTCC with the Champ cars again, come back Clio's, Formula Ford/Renault all is forgiven.

[Amanda]

I have seen Champ cars twice now, once at Rockingham when I was really there for ASCAR and this year at Brands when I was there for BTCC. Both times I have found them very boring. I prefer the usual BTCC meetings with the regular support series.

[Peter]

I strongly believe in unity between the two series. Giving up on the joint meeting after the first year would be a fatal error.

Currently, both championships are begging to be able to boast a reasonable attendance. With a large attendance comes more media coverage, more sponsors and more manufacturers for this series- tell me this can only be a good thing. What would be the use of two seperate events, attracting 20,000 each? Even though you may not like forking out an extra few quid, think for the good of the series.

Having been at the ege of my sear in my grandstand seats at Long Beach and Rockingham, and been bored out of my skin at the unfortunately dull London Champ Car Trophy, I can promise that what you saw on May 5 was a big exception to what is generally seen as the finest form of open wheel racing on Earth. CART know they made a big mistake with their fuel window rule for that race and they can be relied on to get it right next year- I promise.

To support the BTCC, accept a higher entry fee and relish at the thought that you contributed to the 40,000 strong crowd, and look forward to a much closer 2004 London Champ Car Trophy. See you there!

[cos]

The £40 price tag was because of CART, not Toca. It is important to remember that it was first and foremost a CART meeting, and the BTCC was just a support race.

I'm sure once CART sort out th pit-stop regs, next year will see some much better racing (as Peter said.

I'm not sure that the BTCC was just there to fill up the crowd - normal Toca meetings at Brands get a lower crowd than what was there at the London Champ Car Trophy.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rob Watton
I do not know what other think but I got the impression that the BTCC was used to increase the circuit audience as the Champ car was not going to fill the circuit.

TOCA would not have agreed to partner CART that day had they not seen any benefits for themselves.


If the champ cars are back again later in the year when the BTCC visits Brands again, I will seriously consider attending.

It's a shame you don't want to support the BTCC at Brands next year. Still, the series will still boast a bigger attendance at this meeting than any other.


Last year the two visits to Brands was excellent with the GP circuit used one visit and the indy the other.

The BTCC are unlikely to race on the GP circuit next year anyway- just read Alan Gow's response in the other forum.



Please, Please, Please, Please TOCA don't put the BTCC with the Champ cars again, come back Clio's, Formula Ford/Renault all is forgiven.

Those series were all there that weekend. I think you are also unfair to imply that the racing in Formula Ford and Formula Renault is always infinitely better than that Champ Car race.

[The Stig]

Compared to the televised CART races I have seen, the London Champ Car Trophy race was awful. Don't recall seeing the diamond vision screens at Brands before. CART could do worse than utilise the Grand Prix circuit combined with the huge screens if they must re-appear at Brands next year. Presumably cost considerations precluded the use of the GP circuit. The upshot of which was the race didn't do itself justice.

[Rob Watton]

Sorry I do not agree.

Being an avid BTCC supporter and travel to all the rounds throughout the country, the Carts at Brands were aweful.

£40 to watch a race that was even more boring than F1 was robbery.

The BTCC itself attracks excellent crowds in its own right.

The two types of racing are completely different.

If cart is the best single seater racing on earth and the BTCC was there as a support race, why is the BTCC not a support race for F1 ?!

Having arranged parade laps for BTCC fans at previous meets and race day gatherings for fellow MG fans I can assure you that the crowds how attend a BTCC race are not small.

Finally I do not think the lowering of the BTCC importance when supporting a cart race is appropriate and neither is the hike in entrance fee.

The Clio's, Formula Renault/Ford and other support races on a normal BTCC race day are no less supported by either the crowd or the organisers, and the prices is not inflated due to one specific type of race on that day.

[Les]

yeah but why should I pay £40 to watch touring cars?

I didn't want to see the cart so sell me a ticket for my usual £25 and lock me in the touring car paddock for the 2 hours the champ cars are on and I'll be happy.

[Jamie P-E]

My personal opinion of the Champ Car Race,

YAWN, YAWN,YAWN!!!!!!!!!


I watched 3 laps and even that bored me.

Jamie

[Alan]

There are a couple of points coming out here:

1. The champ car race at Brands was atypical of the series.

2. The main reason for this was the fuel strategy imposed by the organisers for safety reasons.

3. The reason for that strategy - i.e. a narrow pitlane, is unlikely to have "gone away" by next year.

4. Result - next years race, should there be one, is likely to be similar to this years.

5. The GP circuit is very unlikely to be used due to the cost of safety based modifications.

Also - dyed in the wool BTCC/TOCA supporters don't want to spend extra to see a race they are not interested in.

However - there are not many of us - and TOCA needs big crowds to survive and prosper. We will see if the plan worked at the next round at Brands later this year. If the crowd is up - it worked, if not, it didn't (other external circumstances not withstanding of course).

Comments?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rob Watton
Sorry I do not agree.

Being an avid BTCC supporter and travel to all the rounds throughout the country, the Carts at Brands were aweful.

£40 to watch a race that was even more boring than F1 was robbery.

The BTCC itself attracks excellent crowds in its own right.

The two types of racing are completely different.

If cart is the best single seater racing on earth and the BTCC was there as a support race, why is the BTCC not a support race for F1 ?!

Having arranged parade laps for BTCC fans at previous meets and race day gatherings for fellow MG fans I can assure you that the crowds how attend a BTCC race are not small.

Finally I do not think the lowering of the BTCC importance when supporting a cart race is appropriate and neither is the hike in entrance fee.

The Clio's, Formula Renault/Ford and other support races on a normal BTCC race day are no less supported by either the crowd or the organisers, and the prices is not inflated due to one specific type of race on that day.

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not doubting that you are a die hard BTCC fan.

It really depends on how you define "excellent crowds in their own right." I am sure you are well aware that the media can only cater for majorities, and the BTCC will only receive the coverage we feel it deserves if the attendances are A LOT higher. Hence Alan Gow targetting 30,000 as opposed to 17,000, which we had at Silverstone.

I guess I wasn't clear enough when describing CART. I did not mean CART is the most prestigious single seater series in the world- not by any means, just ask Chris Pook (CEO of CART)! However, the actual racing is some of the closest and most exciting in the world. Now that you should mention Formula 1, yes, I do I think it would be extremely healthy for this series to demonstrate its product in front of the 100,000 Grand Prix race day fans, considering the disgraceful lack of support races, even though CART and BTCC for £40 is a lot better value than £115 for the Grand Prix.

[Paul Rayner]

First of all I'd like to answer this question:

Originally posted by Rob Watton
If cart is the best single seater racing on earth and the BTCC was there as a support race, why is the BTCC not a support race for F1 ?!
Basically this can be answered with one word - "politics". I hate it when that word makes things bad for motorsport, but in this case the simple fact is that Bernie Ecclestone will not allow anything other than F3000 and Porsches to get televised while supporting F1. That's why, for the past few years, if you pay £90+ for an F1 race, the F3 support race is not even filmed to go on the giant TV screens. It sucks, but I believe back in 1997, when the BTCC lost its F1 support slot, TOCA decided that they would rather be watched by a couple of million people on TV than just 90,000 at Silverstone.

As for appearing alongside CART, I think you're forgetting what the reaction was when this race was announced. Don't forget that, back in January, so many people were really excited about watching Champ Cars AND the BTCC together. Sure, they had to pay a bit extra, but it would be the race meeting of the year! 40,000 people attended on race day. Touring Cars won't get that again this year, even charging half the price!

The chance to appear with Champ Cars was a great chance to get new people to watch the BTCC. Lots of people went to Brands who had never seen Champ Cars before, but wanted to check them out. Most of the crowd, after watching the first BTCC race, stayed for the last one, something which never happens for the races after the second Touring Car race at a TOCA event, most people go home!

Sure, the Champ Car race was boring, it was always going to be on the Indy circuit, whatever pit stop rules you had. If the race was held next year as this year, on the same circuit at the same price, I think it'd really struggle to attract even a crowd of around 20,000. If it's held on the GP circuit though, with improvements to make more overtaking, it could be a big event again. Unfortunately though, although tin-top races on the Indy circuit are fantastic, Brands, with either the Indy or GP layout, isn't Britain's best circuit for creating exciting single-seater races.

[Amanda]

Originally posted by Les
yeah but why should I pay £40 to watch touring cars?

I didn't want to see the cart so sell me a ticket for my usual £25 and lock me in the touring car paddock for the 2 hours the champ cars are on and I'll be happy.

Can I be locked in with you please Les? I had lost the will to live after about 10 mins of Champ car 'racing'!!!!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Paul Rayner
Sure, the Champ Car race was boring, it was always going to be on the Indy circuit, whatever pit stop rules you had. If the race was held next year as this year, on the same circuit at the same price, I think it'd really struggle to attract even a crowd of around 20,000. If it's held on the GP circuit though, with improvements to make more overtaking, it could be a big event again. Unfortunately though, although tin-top races on the Indy circuit are fantastic, Brands, with either the Indy or GP layout, isn't Britain's best circuit for creating exciting single-seater races.

I am a little concerned about next year's attendance, but I think that hangs on a few things. CART seem to have taken a step in the right direction by signing a tv deal with a very reachable channel in Eurosport, as opposed to pay-per view Sky Sports last year. The attendance may also be helped if Darren Manning gets a Lola next year.

Although, as you say, Brands is not the best circuit for single seaters, it does attract the biggest crowds, and it is closest to the London market.

I doubt they will be able to use the Grand Prix circuit next year, as the required changes are phenomenal. However, the main reason the race was dull was because CART only mandated 2 pit stops, they plan to mandate 3 for next year. We do not even know if the cars could have passed on that track, as the drivers were cruising into corners and were not even trying to pass.

[Paul Rayner]

Originally posted by Peter
However, the main reason the race was dull was because CART only mandated 2 pit stops, they plan to mandate 3 for next year. We do not even know if the cars could have passed on that track, as the drivers were cruising into corners and were not even trying to pass.
I'm sorry, that's not true.

I've watched a lot of single-seater races around Brands, and the higher up the ladder you get, the duller they become. Formula Fords can be great there, but Renaults are usually a bit more processional (although the Brands Renault race this year was very exciting, very little overtaking occurred at the front, and this was only when one driver made a mistake). Formula 3 is even more processional and with CART, with even more reliance on aerodynamics and with even wider cars, it was always going to be dull.

Yes, it would be better with 3 stops, but the fact that Manning, not saving fuel, was unable to pass anyone who wasn't, proves that it won't solve the problem.

In my opinion for CART next year, it's the GP circuit or bust. Unless it rains, the Indy circuit won't produce an exciting CART race, and CART cannot afford another race in Britain as dull as this year's if they want to break the market here.

[Alan]

I thought the CART boss had already stated that they would definitely not be using the GP circuit because of the cost.

So where does that leave things?

[Rob Watton]

If I understand correctly on what people have said here.

The carts are only with the BTCC for one race weekend.

If that is so, why is the second visit of the BTCC to Brands this year still £40 ?

What else am I getting that may be worth the extra £20 ontop of the normal entry price.

Back to the champ cars.

Even if they increase the pit stops, there will still be no overtaking as with 2 stops no-one over took then, so why will one extra pitstop make people suddenly over take ?

30secs to do a lap, and to see that for 2+hrs is not worth £20 extra and the degrading of the BTCC to a support race.

Come on Mr West ditch the Champs and let go tin-top racing.

ps.

If the ETCC is joining the BTCC next year why do we think the crowds will not increase with that, if they do, do we really need the champ cars gate crashing the party.! ?

[Les]

where have you heard of £40?
I went on Octagon's site and they haven't got tickets on sale yet.

[Rob Watton]

Les

It was if I remember correctly in an autosport booklet, listing all the tracks, the dates & entrance fees, and for Brands both visits were £40.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Alan
I thought the CART boss had already stated that they would definitely not be using the GP circuit because of the cost.

So where does that leave things?

You are right. They cannot use the Grand Prix track next year. Although I don't think CART are trying hard enough on this one. If they can race on absurd street tracks- like Miami, I'm sure they could have managed the long track, if they really wanted.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Paul Rayner
I'm sorry, that's not true.

I've watched a lot of single-seater races around Brands, and the higher up the ladder you get, the duller they become. Formula Fords can be great there, but Renaults are usually a bit more processional (although the Brands Renault race this year was very exciting, very little overtaking occurred at the front, and this was only when one driver made a mistake). Formula 3 is even more processional and with CART, with even more reliance on aerodynamics and with even wider cars, it was always going to be dull.

Yes, it would be better with 3 stops, but the fact that Manning, not saving fuel, was unable to pass anyone who wasn't, proves that it won't solve the problem.

In my opinion for CART next year, it's the GP circuit or bust. Unless it rains, the Indy circuit won't produce an exciting CART race, and CART cannot afford another race in Britain as dull as this year's if they want to break the market here.

I do not dispute that at all. I was merely saying that the racing would have been closer had they been able to race on full rich fuel micture. Instead, drivers were not even trying to race. Although the more stops the better, as drivers make mistakes when running on cold tyres.

Like I said earlier, I would like to see CART run at Silverstone. Chris Pook's demand that the series runs near the London market at a venue with acceptable facilities and produces quality racing is a little much.

[Alan]

Well I'm not what you would call a Silverstone fan (!!!!) but surely Silverstone is not far from London - certainly not in American terms anyway. And it has the facilities and should produce a good race - so why don't they just head up the M1!

And we wouldn't have to put up with the cramped paddock, the pitlane should be wide enough for them and the circuit up to scratch safety wise.

So why are they at Brands Hatch at all?:(

I guess there is a political answer to that!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Alan
Well I'm not what you would call a Silverstone fan (!!!!) but surely Silverstone is not far from London - certainly not in American terms anyway. And it has the facilities and should produce a good race - so why don't they just head up the M1!

And we wouldn't have to put up with the cramped paddock, the pitlane should be wide enough for them and the circuit up to scratch safety wise.

So why are they at Brands Hatch at all?:(

I guess there is a political answer to that!

I don't feel emotionallt attached to Silverstone in any way- quite the reverse. However, as you say, the track is a lot better suited to Champ Car racing with the Hangar Straight in particular.

However, CART President and CEO, Chris Pook is an astute businessman, who will never overlook the significance of the market. He has therefore added street races in downtwn Miami, Denver and St. Petersburg, and is looking to add Chicago next year. The whole significance of Brands is that it is a London suburb, 25 minutes from London. It is much easier to entertain the sponsors and escort them to London than it is to either keep them impressed with sunny Towcester or make them travel 70 miles to the market, which is a hell of a lot further than the tracks listed above to their respective markets.

[acorn]

the poll asks should btcc and champ cars be on the same race card. it doesn't say at the same circuit ie brands. why not on the same bill but at rockingham with champ cars on the oval and the btcc on the infield road course. you could even have them going round at the same time as the two can be operated separately.

[cos]

If you don't want to cough up £40 to see a BTCC/CART meeting, why don't you pay Sky £12.50 a month for the most basic package, and watch the races MotorsTV. Then you'll be saving money, you'll stay dry if it's a wet meeting, you'll see much more of the action, and you won't have to pay £3 for a soggy burger.

As for CART and BTCC racing simultaneously at the Rock, that won't work as the infield course, despite its name, uses part of the oval.

[acorn]

Originally posted by cos


As for CART and BTCC racing simultaneously at the Rock, that won't work as the infield course, despite its name, uses part of the oval.

not strictly true. the rock has several configurations and the infield can be operated separately from the oval as anybody who was there on the 11th may would have seen with the jhre cars doing their thing in the middle(on the lake circuit) with the pickups and ascars on the oval. ok, it's not the short international circuit that the btcc will use on the 21/22 june but it can be done.(i think it's called the national circuit)

ps it wasn't meant as a serious suggestion

[Les]

Originally posted by cos
If you don't want to cough up £40 to see a BTCC/CART meeting, why don't you pay Sky £12.50 a month for the most basic package, and watch the races MotorsTV. Then you'll be saving money, you'll stay dry if it's a wet meeting, you'll see much more of the action, and you won't have to pay £3 for a soggy burger.

can anyone see me happy with that suggestion??? I think not!! :mad:

What I am saying is why after x number of years paying £20-25 a meeting should I have to pay £40 to go to a Cart meeting to watch my touring cars. They should have let those of us who go to touring cars get in at touring car prices!

and don't even me start me on the paddock....
:rolleyes:

[MAINEMAN]

With out doubt cart and btcc should be on the same bill,two big series and the cart will only help the btcc to grow in stature.The cart race might have been disappointing but there cappable of so much better racing than that as anyone who follows the series every race will testify.As an event the london champ car trophy will get bigger and better next year with the same package as this year.

[Jamie P-E]

Les, I fully agree with what you are saying. If I hadn't been given tickets the weekend would have cost me well 150.00 which i cant afford.
:mad:

[Les]

could any of us?

you just feel a little used. You go to every race and then one get hyped up like that and you seriously have to decide whether you can justify the outlay. I just wonder how many of the touring car followers didn't go because of the price?

[The Stig]

I agree with both your posts Les. If the venue and price structure prevail next year and Champ have their UK race at Brands, I will definitely give my favourite BTCC meeting a miss. I wasn't impressed enough by the Champ race to be tempted to pay
40 pds in May next year, (2004), and for me, once bitten is twice shy!!
Chris Pook and his people really should try Silverstone, which I am not at all fond of anyway.

[Rob Watton]

Les

I don't know how many did not go(in may) due to the price, but as an organiser of MG Fans who support MG and travel throughtout the country, a large number of them did state they would seriously re-think going again if the race card and were the same next time.

But they alos then stated that they felt it would be letting MG & WSR down if we were not there to cheer on the boys.

£20 entrace fee is excellent value for money, BTCC is an excellent motorsport and the fact that you can get so close to the teams, drivers & cars in my opinion helps with atmosphere.

The bank holiday monday in my opinion had none of the normal BTCC atmosphere and was bordering on F1 sterile feeling.

If you go to a BTCC meet during the support races there are still quite a few people watching and there are others wondering around the circuit. At Brands once the carts started everyone dissappearered after about 5-10laps through bordum.

Ok, numbers through the gates is good, but if no-one is watching the races surely that's bad.

[acorn]

so, can i take it very few will be going to silverstone next year when the tourers support f1 at extortionate prices. you'll see even less of the cars than at brands and you'll probably have to pay near the full whack cos season passes probably won't be valid.