2004 calendar

[Claire]

Found this on another site

Round Date Venue
1&2 10/11 April Thruxton
3&4 1/2/3 May Brands Hatch (Indy)*
5&6 15/16 May Silverstone
7&8 30/31 May Oulton Park
9&10 12/13 June Mondello Park
11&12 26/27 June Rockingham / Knockhill (TBA)
9/10/11 July British GP (Silverstone) **
13&14 24/25 July Croft
15&16 21/22 August Brands Hatch (Indy)
17&18 4/5 September Snetterton
19&20 18/19 September Donington Park (National)
* CART event
** Non-championship race

Makes interesting reading with Cart and F1 on the menu.
Good to see that Knockhill is being considered and that we are starting off in the UK!!
What does everyone else think?

[Amanda]

Very interesting!

I was hoping we wouldn't have another meeting with CART! Not sure about the non championship GP meeting as I am not an F1 fan.

Great news that we might be back at Knockhill!:D

[Ed- the MG fan]

I think it is excellent news that it will be supporting the F1, can only help promote the series.

Also be good to see the F1 cars skidding on all the dust and oil that always ends up on a track after a BTCC race. Also on the GP cicuit too which I have always preferd.

Good to see that there might be the return of Knockhill

[touringlegend]

I love Knockhill and that, but Knockhill vs. Rockingham - who do you think is going to win that one ... :(

[Amanda]

Originally posted by touringlegend
I love Knockhill and that, but Knockhill vs. Rockingham - who do you think is going to win that one ... :(

Knockhill I hope!

[Sim_Da_BTCC_Man]

The words F1 And CART in that callendar are pretty much hated by me :(

The words Boring and Rip Off come to mind.

It may be good for profile but the BTCC is supposed to be value for money! What A load of old tat.

Ladys and Gentlemen, Cows And Sheep of the TOCA forums im sorry if thats blunt but these events are not value for money, and I hate to seem selfish but I'm not made of money!

[Peter]

This is terrific news- one of the best calendars in ages.

I am particularly pleased about CART and F1- will be two weekends to really enjoy. The British Grand Prix was becoming very bland with a severe lack of support races.

It is a shame Rockingham might lose its race, as it is one extra event I can attend. Why not go to Knockhill on 22 August instead of the 2nd Brands event?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sim_Da_BTCC_Man
The words F1 And CART in that callendar are pretty much hated by me :(

The words Boring and Rip Off come to mind.

It may be good for profile but the BTCC is supposed to be value for money! What A load of old tat.

Ladys and Gentlemen, Cows And Sheep of the TOCA forums im sorry if thats blunt but these events are not value for money, and I hate to seem selfish but I'm not made of money!

Think more about manufacturers and teams, where it is exceptionally good value to race in front of the Grand Prix crowds.

[lauz]

i am pleased with the new calander! i hope that knockhill comes back but i want rockingham to stay on the calander aswell.

[touring fan]

Boo hiss to a GP supporting event, does the lack of round numbers for that mean it's a non championship event though? (hope so, don't want to miss another round because of costs).
Starting in England rather than Mondello I think is good because I think more people will be able to get there and moving mondello to summer holiday time is good too.
I agree, swapping a brands event for knockhill would be better than losing rockingham.
Is this an official calender/provisional or just what somebody thinks it'll be?

[Reynard]

Mmmmmm, I hope Rockingham wins the battle with Knockhill... That might be a little bit clearer after this weekend when we've seen what the BTCC is like at The Rock.

Anyway, what's being toted around in the ASCAR forum is a suggestion to run both ASCAR & BTCC at Rockingham at some point. Whether this will happen only time will tell, but I like the sound of it! :)

[Les]

well there are bits I like - Snetterton 2 days, maybe Knockhill, Ireland in the sun and very very big bits I don't - CART & F1 support.

It's daft I know but if I am forced to miss one race due to money - i.e. the GP, then I might as well stay at home for some of the others i.e. Cart.

[oliver_sb85]

I think this is a great calendar, the F1 support race is a fantastic idea, I had always thought it would be a great thing to revive but never thought there was any chance, a nice suprise!

The only thing I think should be addressed is the Rockingham/ Knockhill date clash, both tracks should be visited by the BTCC in 2004 and if they dropped the first silverstone round then both could be on the calendar. For those people who complain that the F1 support is negative, think about it this way, it is BTCC racing on the biggest motorsport stage in the world - great for the current teams and manufactuers for promotion and it might attract the attention of several more prestige marques and drivers. The first silverstone round should be dropped because the meetings there are never very well attended, its got no atmosphere or feeling of an 'event' outside GP time and there are plenty of circuits for those in the midlands locality. Knockhill and Rockingham should both be included as they both have lots of character in their own way and add to the diversity of the championship...

other thoughts:

Thruxton opener - having the first rounds in this country should create a bumper crowd

Snetterton - Does the late season date indicate a return of the night races, I hope so!

Donington park finale - good because it produces good racing, has a large capcity and is centrally located in the country for people coming from far and wide

all the rest are fine too, ooh im looking forward to 2004 now, onward the resurgent BTCC

( wow long post! )

[rdjones]

Mondello v Le Mans - it's the same weekend - sorry Le Mans wins sorry......

[Alan Gow]

With all due respect, it seems as though some people here may have missed the point a little bit.

The GP support is an additional event to the normal BTCC 10 event calendar. We have not replaced a championship event to make way for the GP support.

Therefore people who choose to attend the F1 GP will merely have the great opportunity of seeing BTCC cars in action..... and BTCC fans still get to enjoy the full 10 event season, as the GP support is a "showcase" non-championship event and does not impact on the championship.

[Peter]

Originally posted by touring fan
Boo hiss to a GP supporting event, does the lack of round numbers for that mean it's a non championship event though? (hope so, don't want to miss another round because of costs).
Starting in England rather than Mondello I think is good because I think more people will be able to get there and moving mondello to summer holiday time is good too.
I agree, swapping a brands event for knockhill would be better than losing rockingham.
Is this an official calender/provisional or just what somebody thinks it'll be?

This is the provisional calendar.

I think the reason the GP support event is not an official round of the Championship is because, I believe, there is only one race, as opposed to the two at other meeting. It may also be Bernie playing games, as last year the Formula 3 race at Silverstone was non-championship.

[cos]

They could replace the 2nd Brands race with Knockhill - but then people who don't want to stump up £40 for the May Brands Hatch race will complain.

I agree that the first Silverstone race should be scrapped - it's right in the heart of motorsport country with Donny, the Rock etc. nearby. And it's rubbish for spectating, unless you've got TV screens.

[Peter]

Originally posted by cos
unless you've got TV screens.

Television screens should definitely be considered at all BTCC rounds again. What happened to the old screen from the Millenium Dome?

You will be disappointed to hear that the Silverstone GP race probably won't even be on the tv screens, as the the F3 race wasn't- Bernie again!!

[Sim_Da_BTCC_Man]

Originally posted by Peter
Television screens should definitely be considered at all BTCC rounds again. What happened to the old screen from the Millenium Dome?


They belong to ARB. TOCA don't use ARB for technical stuff at events anymore. We were promised that we would have some by mid season but they still have not arrived.

[cos]

There were screens at Brands in May though... but that was probably a CART thing.

[Paul Rayner]

Originally posted by Peter
You will be disappointed to hear that the Silverstone GP race probably won't even be on the tv screens, as the the F3 race wasn't- Bernie again!!
I know I have said this was the case elsewhere but I might have been wrong, by the sounds of what Alan Gow's said on his forum, this probably won't be the case (ie if ITV are filming it).

When TOCA left the GP support bill, Touring Cars were on BBC, F1 was on ITV. Now that both are on ITV, this problem may have been solved.

Agree totally that we need giant TV screens. Alan Gow brought in Radio TOCA years ago, now things have moved on, maybe it really is time for TOCA TV.

[silverfox]

Much as I have respected the views of Mr Gowe in the past I cannot go along with this calendar.
I was for many years one of the diehard fans who attended every round in all weathers but when the series went to Mondello this stopped.
The reason was simple-cost.
Now the GP has been added,be it in a non-scoring role,I regard it as a slap in the face for the bread and butter fan.
If the usual load of GP freeloaders(did anybody see Ozzy Osborne:mad: )are parading up and down the grid while the rabble are kept behind the fences,its like having our noses rubbed in it.
I expected great things but my hopes have been dashed

[Reynard]

I think that's a little bit uncalled for, Silverfox.

However, if you are unhappy with the BTCC calendar, you can always vote with your feet and watch something else...

I only tend to do a couple of BTCC meets a year anyway - this year it will be Rockingham and Snetterton - because of my increased media commitments to the ASCAR series and all I am hoping for next year is that I don't get any clashes between ASCAR and the BTCC meetings that I want to attend.

As it's been pointed out, it is only a PROVISIONAL calendar and things will invariably change between now and the start of the next season. You've got to bear in mind that in motor racing, nothing is set in stone until it actually happens.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Paul Rayner
When TOCA left the GP support bill, Touring Cars were on BBC, F1 was on ITV. Now that both are on ITV, this problem may have been solved.


No, F1 was still on BBC. Final year of Touring Cars at the Grand Prix was 1996. ITV took over Formula 1 in 1997.

[The Stig]

Include both Rockingham and Knockhill, move Cart to support F1 at Silverstone and have two races at Brands. Not remotely fussed by Champ Cars and seriously begrudge paying another
£ 40.00 for Brands solely because of Cart. Let them race at Silverstone because it a far better circuit for that formula and the F1 crowd will get a little more for their outrageous ticket prices.
Cart round Brands Indy doesn't work and I will seriously consider not visiting that BTCC round rather than pay a lot more for a product I didn't enjoy this year.
Will climb down from my soapbox now. Sorry, but BTCC playing second fiddle to F1 poseurs and freeloaders and being hijacked by the Champ Cars really irritates me.

[Les]

Originally posted by Alan Gow
With all due respect, it seems as though some people here may have missed the point a little bit.[QUOTE]

The GP support is an additional event to the normal BTCC 10 event calendar. We have not replaced a championship event to make way for the GP support.

Therefore people who choose to attend the F1 GP will merely have the great opportunity of seeing BTCC cars in action..... and BTCC fans still get to enjoy the full 10 event season, as the GP support is a "showcase" non-championship event and does not impact on the championship. [/B]

I am sorry Alan but I am afraid you don't know the type of people who post on these forums.

Your run of the mill fan we are not.
We are the ones who are very passionate about the touring cars. We try to go to every meeting that we can - a lot of us go to every meeting and it's not 100% because of the racing.

For a lot of us it is to see mates race and to meet friends. We plan our holidays around Mondello and Scotland, we have meals, BBQs - heck most of our social life is involved around the race experience.

We all kept coming when a lot of people didn't. Oh yes we could stop at home and watch it on the box but that's not the same is it? Heck the TV doesn't even show the people I watch very often ;)

As Silverfox says - it is a slap in the face for the bread and butter fan - in fact it is 2 - one for Cart and that stupid charge for paddock entry and one for F1.

But of course you can always do something about it... get us tickets for F1 at a decent price with access to 'our' paddock and the same for Cart. It's easy enough to police, just create a series supporters club and sell us tickets through that.

Then you get what you want - BTCC in front of thousands which is a brilliant idea and we get what we want - to be able to afford to see it and to be treated as if we really matter.

[Racefan_uk]

Alternatively,

The Champ Car could move back to Rockingham, that would give them a circuit that has been designed to hold them, is safe enough (look at the Brands Pitlane this year, it was a dangerous joke!) and ASCAR can support.

Then the BTCC can go to Knockhill again and the Scottish fans get three decent meetings again (GT/F3 and SBK).

As for the GP support slot, waste of money for the BTCC punter who doesn't like F1 and won't pay the gate prices. I mean, the thick end of a hundred quid, for a BTCC race. Please...

And also, the statement from Alan Gow about the GP support race not impacting on the championship. Well, teams will need to find extra budget to enter and run in it (the entry fees I'm sure will be huge, Bernie will see to that) and if one of the front runners (or several) in the seres gets totalled at the GP its only two weeks to the next round at Croft. Might cause problems.

The BTCC should be concentrating on things the fans like, such as getting closer to the teams and drivers and night races etc. Not doing a race for no points at the GP.

[oliver_sb85]

I think this is all being blown out of proportion, surely you can see the benfits of racing at the Grand Prix, its the most prestigous race weekend in the year, it will bring the series to the attention of a new audience and many manufacturers and sponsors and there is no other touring car series DTM or ETCC that can boast having a GP support. I bet a lot of F1 fans will be suprised just how competitive and exciting the BTCC is now and thus increase the fan base. For those people lucky enough to visit every round of the championship, well you can still watch it on TV like most of us, heck there is even the small possibility ( because it is only a single race ) that it could be broadcast live on the ITV F1 coverage, unlikely but you never know.

Im sure this deal has taken a lot of effort to put together and I for one would like to congratulate Mr Gow, just look at the positive steps forward the series has made since he took the helm. Us fans can be pretty demanding at times, I know you cant please everybody but I think your being a bit harsh

[spark]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but wasn't the britsh gp in doubt due to circuit managemant problems ?

[Alan Gow]

Well, Les, I must admit I am pretty amazed and disappointed at the response of yourself and some others.

I really don't understand how you consider it as a "slap in the face".......I would understand your feelings if it was a championship round and you were being forced to pay the GP ticket price to just see a round of the championship. But that's simply not the case.

It's not a championship event and the BTCC is still running the same amount of championship rounds. Therefore your annual BTCC experience remains untouched by the GP.

For the BTCC to grow and attract new entries, we must show our stuff in front of the widest audience as possible, both trackside and on TV.

The GP support is a prestigous showcase for the BTCC, in front of the biggest audience of the year and is an important part of the revival of the series.

I appreciate and respect your support for the BTCC, but perhaps you should look at the bigger picture. If fans really want the BTCC to be back to the strength it once was, then I would have imagined that they would appluad any move that helps to take it positively forward and exposes it to the widest audience possible.

It's obvious that I cannot please everybody all of the time, but my sole focus is to make this championship the powerhouse it once was and I believe I have the knowledge, expertise and experience to make it happen.

Some things that I do you may like, some you may dislike......but I actually do know what I am doing and understand what is needed to make it great again.

[Bill]

Seems like a good move to me. To be honest, some of the replies on here are of a fairly selfish tone.

It seems that some people simply oppose the GP round because they won't be able to / cant be bothered to pay the high price. Firstly, as a non-champ event, you're not missing anything too critical.

Also, it's all very well trying to create a championship that appeases the 20 or so people that try to visit each event, but frankly, 20 less tickets sold at one round or two will make no difference to the championship. With the support race, you expose the championship to new people, and in turn raise its profile. Manufacturers may be enticed to the championship by the support race, and if not, it doesn't matter, they can miss it as its non-championship.

I applaud Alan Gow - he really seems to be making big moves, possibly big risks, but things now look very promising. I feel that the status of the championship will be enhanced by these support races, and that it can only help in attracting quality drivers and teams.

Those that oppose this addition to the calender are taking a very short-sighted view IMHO :eek:

[Le Mans]

I agree with you Bill. There can be no racing car series in the world that would not jump at the chance of racing on the same card as formula 1. It is exactly what the teams need to impress their sponsors. It can only be good for BTCC and if Alan Gow is the person responsible for it then well done. Also, for anyone living in the south east it would not cost anymore than going to watch a BTCC race at Mondello Park or Knockhill.

[Les]

don't me wrong here... It is absolutley brilliant that they will be at the GP and in front of such a large crowd. And knowing our boys a lot of f1 fans are going to see a right spectacle of real racing and will come away thinking that the best race of the day was the BTCC. Hopefully they will become as hooked as we are. Brilliant - well done...

BUT

don't forget those die hard fans who have followed it for the last few years who due to costs can't get to Mondello, can't afford Cart and now can't afford the GP.

Don't just think of us as people with bottomless pits of money or worse still, don't think of us at all.


queue to push me off my soap box starts here.....

[touringlegend]

I don't see the problem in missing a few BTCC events...go along to your local circuit and see some club racing (which I also love).

The BTCC used to be a pinnacle worldwide known series, I don't see why it should simply give up these excellent chances to be it again just so people can see it in the flesh one more time...

[touringlegend]

Originally posted by Bill
I applaud Alan Gow - he really seems to be making big moves, possibly big risks, but things now look very promising. I feel that the status of the championship will be enhanced by these support races, and that it can only help in attracting quality drivers and teams.

I agree too. There seems to be some sort of direction to the BTCC now, whereas only a month ago everyone was wondering if next year would be any improvement on this years championship in terms of grid sizes, now we can see that it could well be.

[mark]

I think the provisional calendar looks great. Starting at Thruxton is good and I like the idea of supporting F1. Ok so prices for entry may be very high, but it's sure to help publicise the BTCC to even more preople and possibly attract people like me who love the BTCC but have never seen the spectacle of F1 in reality and therefore might make an exception to see both. Also, as it's a non championship event, everyone is just going to be all out in both races as the results will only hurt their image, not championship chances. :D

I think that the second meeting at Brands Hatch SHOULD DEFINATELY be DROPPED. Why visit it twice? :( I'm sure the racing at the Rock this weekend will be exciting and also I think the BTCC needs to visit Knockhill to allow Scottish fans their chance of seeing the BTCC.

[Reynard]

If the said BTCC race at next year's British GP actually counted towards the championship, then some people might have a point.

HOWEVER, people usually do go to a GP for the purpose of watching the GP rather than the supports - whatever happens to be on the support card is a real bonus, especially if it is one of the top national series which provides good quality racing on a regular basis. Mind you, with a guaranteed raceday crowd of some 50,000 plus, you can't really go far wrong in getting the BTCC the exposure that it needs.

But by making it a non-championship race, it removes the issue of missing the real business i.e. rounds that count towards the final results tableaux.

I can't understand how some people can work up such a lather about it all - if you don't want to go to Silverstone (or Mondello or the Brands CART meeting) because of the cost, then fine, suit yourself. Like I said in an earlier post, if you're not happy, vote with your feet. Ultimately, whether you go or not is your own decision, but that's no excuse to vent your spleen on the people who are trying to raise the profile of the BTCC.

But please give other people the opportunity to take advantage of being able to kill two birds with a single stone and watch both F1 and BTCC.

[redshoes]

Originally posted by Les
I am sorry Alan but I am afraid you don't know the type of people who post on these forums.

Your run of the mill fan we are not.
We are the ones who are very passionate about the touring cars. We try to go to every meeting that we can - a lot of us go to every meeting and it's not 100% because of the racing.

Then you get what you want - BTCC in front of thousands which is a brilliant idea and we get what we want - to be able to afford to see it and to be treated as if we really matter.

With all due respect Les, you seem to have missed the point, and even overestimated your own importance in the process.

You are correct when you say there are those who travel to ever meeting, or at least as many as possible, and again correct when you say they treat it as more of a social gathering than just a race meeting. If I was not otherwise occupied at TOCA meetings I'd probably put myself in that category.

The point is that a few hundred or so dedicated fans aren't going to save the series. You complained about the cost of going to Mondello yet you still go, you complained about the cost of the CART meeting but you were there too, you complain about the cost of the GP but I don't doubt for one minute that come next July you'll be there too. In a way people like you are not as important to TOCA as you'll be there regardless

What the series needs in order to return to the highs of the mid 90's is to bring in the sort of fan who WOULDN'T normally travel to every meeting, and those who are occasional race-goer but not necessarily Touring Car fans. That's why TOCA were so please with the response to the CART meeting. There were a lot of people there who had come specifically for the CART race and were treated to 2 hours of dull procession sandwiched between 2 cracking BTCC races. Now if just a small percentage of those fans liked what they saw and came back again then the experiment was a success[1]. Just look at how many fan didnÃ*t leave as soon as CART finished but stayed for the second BTCC race. Same with the Halfords ticket giveaway at Silverstone. Get a few new faces through the gates and put on a great show and maybe youÃ*ll win a few more fans.

[1] Of course it has to be said that not everyone saw it as a success. I know several fans, some of the media and even a few teams who werenÃ*t happy with the way things were handled but hopefully these gripes will be addressed next time round.

If I was brutally honest IÃ*m still not 100% convinced about the GP support as there are a number of questions in my mind. Most races on the GP layout tend to get too spread out, can the BTCC really put on a top class show on this track? Traditionally the GP supports are largely ignored by the crowd, many of whom leave as soon as the GP ends. Then thereÃ*s the various media rights and TV problems that happened last time, but Alan Gow is no fool and having been bitten once before IÃ*m sure heÃ*ll make sure everything is in place before committing to this again. On the plus side, if itÃ*s a non-championship event then it raises the possibility of some guest drivers and one-off entries, especially if the Production boys are still with us. Certainly the grid is large enough cope with plenty more.

[tvgod]

I don't mind going to Mondello - it's fun, and actually not too expensive...last season I went to both Mondello and Knockhill and the trip to Scotland cost nearly four times as much as the one to Ireland.

I don't think it's a good idea to have the longhaul trips back to back though.
It means that for the average fan, who can't afford to travel to Ireland or Scotland, or go the the British GP, they have to wait two months after Oulton Park before there is another race they can go to.

I also don't think starting at Thruxton is a good idea - you need good weather there, and you aren't going to get it in early April. It would be better to start at Oulton Park and have the Thruxton meeting on the Whitsun bank holiday weekend, as it was this year.

Finally, why use the National circuit at Donington Park?

You can't say that the longer version is boring after you've added Silverstone GP to the calendar.

[Kelvin]

If the the GP round is not a points round, what incentive is there for the teams to race, appearance money, or the potential of attracting the eyes of sponsors?


If your a GP fan as well as BTCC fan, then it will be a bonus if your someone that goes anyway.

It is good to see an early calendar, I'm now tempted to start thinking of another summer holiday in Ireland, but when will the provisional calendar become firm and addopted?. The Croft and Rock dates I think got shifted several times, I would be most annoyed to pay deposits on a holiday home and it then be changed!!


I am watching this thread with interest, & once again thanx to AG for being in the thick of discussion!!


Kelvin

[Amanda]

I have to say that I would not pay Grand Prix prices to watch a touring car race. However, this race is non championship so it really doesn't matter to me if I see it live or not. Hopefully, the TV coverage will be sorted out so I can sit at home and watch it ~ not having to worry about the traffic queues to get out of Silverstone!

I feel that Alan Gow has made this decision with the best interests of the championship at heart and should be congratulated on that. After all the championship needs to be brought to a bigger audience ~ not just the handful of people (myself included) who are lucky enough to be able to go to all the rounds!

I think a few people around here are getting rather over excited ~ after all this is only a provisional calendar at the moment!:D

TOCA will never please everyone with the calendar, no matter what they do.

[Peter]

There is a great incentitive for all the teams and drivers to compete on the Grand Prix weekend, due to the vast amount of media coverage and attendance. Just use the example of the Indy 500, when all the top CART teams sacrificed their performance in Champ Cars, in order to win at the Brickyard (an IRL sanctioned event) and scoop the glory.

I'm sure the race will take place on Sunday morning, as opposed to after the Grand Prix.

One thing I might suggest is a cash prize for that race to lure in even more attention. Remember Matt Neal's famous win at Donington in 1999? It was the £250,000 which gripped the throats of the viewers.

As you have got me started, howabout getting some celebrities into the race? The odd footballer, thrown in with Colin McRae or Carl Fogarty would do the cause no harm at all.

[Kelvin]

Support races dont get TV coverage do they?

[tvgod]

Originally posted by Kelvin
Support races dont get TV coverage do they?

F1 supports or TOCA supports?

F1 supports are usually F3000 (delayed highlights on ITV) and Porsche Supercup (delayed highlights on Motors TV), plus a guest race. This was Canadian F Ford last weekend, and Renault V6 single seaters at the Monaco GP.
Despite Eurosport having the rights to the Renault V6 championship, they weren't allowed to show that race.


TOCA supports all get live or same day as live coverage on Motrs TV, plus delayed highlights on ITV, except Porsche which is on Channel 4.

[Kelvin]

I meant F1 support races dont get coverage on terrestial TV as part of the F1 package?, or are these screened as some later date, when perhaps its lost the impact of being part of the F1 weekend!

Kelvin

[cos]

Just had another thought, as Redshoes hinted on earlier, perhaps the F1 support race could be a 'toe-in-the-water' for ETCC teams who do not want to commit to a full season next year, but want to see how good they are against the BTCC crew whilst getting decent exposure.

Us 'fans' have got to remember that Aln knows what he's doing, and even though many of us (myself included) like to think we know best, he's the one with all the info.

[davydriveshaft]

Well-put redshoes in your post (donÃ*t what to quote your post as its so long). Ok Les if your so "in touch" with the TOCA fans how would you run the show I'm what you call a "Die hard fan" but only go to a few round due to cost of getting there.
We've got to remember that the new era of TOCA is on in its 3rd year Richard West did a grand job to keep our beloved TOCA alive for that time and now his job is so demanding there brought in the only guy who know the serice/teams/circuts/drives and manufactures Alan Gow.

I'm all for the new calendar itÃ*s a lot better then this years (no offence Westie if your reading) but Alan know what he's doing the Cart and F1 support race are a good idea to promote TOCA, link up's with F3 and GT's (and ASCAR come on you know it make good viewing) will be good for British motor racing.
The only thing I've got to say is wrong is that Knockhill and Rockingham should both be on the calendar and there should be 11 rounds but apart from that excellent (and you can quote me on that :o)).

[Reynard]

Originally posted by davydriveshaft
(and ASCAR come on you know it make good viewing)

Funny you should say that - there's a thread on the official ASCAR forum about running the BTCC as a support for ASCAR ;)

Seriously though, I think it would be a good link-up if ASCAR and the BTCC ran a meeting together next year. I love watching both and lets face it, ASCAR is probably the fastest growing formula in the UK at the moment, and coupled with the BTCC's generic popularity you'll likely get a crowd that would pack the Rock out for some seriously top-class racing.

The super-weekenders last year weren't half bad either - shame the plug was pulled on that as it was a good idea IMHO.

[Alan]

I think the provisional calendar is excellent. Very good for the long term future of BTCC.

It does appear to be a logical development from this year and the previous two years. I may well not go to the F1 support race (despite it being up the road) mainly due to the cost - whereas I will go to the CART weekend at Brands, although I hope the racing will be more lively (I do hope they get TV coverage sorted though, even recorded as it would be disappointing not to be able to see the race at all, even if it is non-championship).

In fact the only thing I can see to even remotely complain about is having the possibility of Knockhill straight after Mondello, doesn't give the bank balance much chance to recover!!!:(

As for the start at Thruxton - well we stood out in a snow storm there in 98 (I think it was) so it won't kill us - and Easter was earlier that year I believe.

Overall verdict - well done AG/RW - full support from me! You ain't going to please everyone guys.

[Mocko]

Originally posted by Kelvin
If the the GP round is not a points round, what incentive is there for the teams to race, appearance money, or the potential of attracting the eyes of sponsors?


I suppose the incentive for drivers is the fact that there are F1 top cats and celebrities looking on with interest at the best series in Britain. After Thommo won the championship, Autosport did a feature interview with him. His "Biggest Dissapointment" was circumstances beyond his control (mechanics?) ruined his meeting as he had a good qualifying spot in the showpiece event.

This is a great calendar in respects. I like to see a full one and the GP support helps. I think having the GP support is a great idea. I have no choice but to agree with Alan Gow. It is a fantastic coup for the BTCC. For the fans like Les and that.... it's a shame that the GP race is expensive but there is the choice of going or not but surely you can't say it's not good for the series. The price's to get in are certainly very steep but that's coincedential. Their not trying to keep out the BTCC fans who can't afford to get in (ie the working class), it's why the GP meet is ADDITIONAL to open up to a new market. There's all the other meets to go to.

I hope the anti-GP support fans think about the pros over a cup of tea and reconsider their thoughts

[Insider]

What some people need to remember is that there is more to motorsport than just the fans, or the drivers, or the teams, or the manufacturers...you need sponsors as well. Motorsport cannot be successful without all of those.

Some fans seem to become obsessed with their own importance, just like manufacturers do, and teams and drivers and sometimes sponsors. There needs to be a blend that works.

The British GP support is not necessarily for the fans( everything is not just for them) but for the sponsors. I know of drivers who have raised a whole seasons F3 budget just on the basis of the F1 support. I have known companies that have spent as much in hospitality at the GP as it would take to run a BTC-P car for the season.

Like it or not, the GP is THE most prestigious event in the British Motorsport calender (possibly in British Sport) and the marketing people and sponsors love it. Offer someone a hospitality package at a BTCC event and they say "I'll have to check I'm not busy". Offer them hospitality at the GP and they bite your hand off. That is why I say " God bless you Alan Gow!"

[redshoes]

Re the ASCAR comments (sorry don't know if I should quote davy or Reynard as you both said similar things)

One of the big problems with that could be converting Rockingham between Oval and International layout. As I understand it that's more involved than just moving a few plastic cones and can take as much as half an hour to achieve. Unless you run the ASCAR race(s) at the start or end of the day you are going to lose an hour or more switching back and forth between layouts, which is just not practical.

The only way I can see that happening is if ASCAR run on a road course as was suggested at Brands this year or even Knockhill and Croft originally but I can't honestly think that is likely.

[tvgod]

Originally posted by davydriveshaft
I'm all for the new calendar itÃ*s a lot better then this years (no offence Westie if your reading) but Alan know what he's doing the Cart and F1 support race are a good idea to promote TOCA, link up's with F3 and GT's (and ASCAR come on you know it make good viewing) will be good for British motor racing.


Of course it wouldn't be good for British motor racing, quite the opposite.

At the moment most circuits have three profitable events a year: Touring Cars, F3 and Superbikes.

If you put Touring Cars and F3 together, that cuts their income by a third. It also means that motorsport fans who will only travel to their local circuit get to see less motorsport.

And it puts time pressure onto the combined event, meaning if anything goes wrong, support races are shortened or axed completely.

An occasional link-up btween the two, as we have this year, is a good idea as it cross-pollenates the fan bases, but more than that is going to damage motorsport.

I also think it's important for both "tours" to have a mixture of different types of racing, which is why both are so strong at the moment:

Type TOCA F3/GT
Headline BTCC F3
Sportscars Porsche GT
One-make saloon Clio Seat
Single Seaters F Renault / Ford BRDC SS Championship
Other Legends/Heritage TVR Tuscans/Mini Miglia

[Reynard]

Originally posted by redshoes
One of the big problems with that could be converting Rockingham between Oval and International layout. As I understand it that's more involved than just moving a few plastic cones and can take as much as half an hour to achieve.

Redshoes - it isn't that bad... Last year the ASCAR supports ran on two different road courses - one for the legends and one for the pick-ups. The transition was relatively smooth unless there was some major clearing-up to do. And in any case, at virtually all race meetings there is a time lag between one race and another, so an extra few minutes wouldn't hurt overly much

I still think that running ASCAR (oval) and BTCC (road course) together on the same racecard could be achievable in terms of logistics, particularly since the safety crews at Rockingham have gotten much slicker at sorting out the circuit layout.

However, although as much as I like the idea, I don't think it will happen at any time in the near future purely because both packages are aiming for a completely different sort of feel and a different kind of audience. You can't beat TOCA for laying on a card that's consistent in its content and quality with an appeal that spans from the casual bloke in the street right to the real anorak whereas ASCAR on the other hand is trying to sell a complete "experience" that is otherwise not available outside of the USA.

I got into ASCAR from a background of following GTs & BTCC and while I'm not overly keen on the American-style razzmatazz at the meets, I just love the racing... As a photographer covering the series for one of the teams, I can get closer to the action than most and it just makes my hair stand on end! :) I can't get *THAT* feeling anywhere else in the UK, BTCC, F3-GT or otherwise...

Now if they can combine ASCAR's close racing and the glorious sound of 22 V8's on full throttle with the popularity and professionalism of the BTCC / TOCA Package, I'll be in seventh heaven! :D

[davydriveshaft]

tvgod i think you've took what i was on about link ups in the wrong way im not on about BTCC, F3 and GT run to the same calender, i'm on about like we has the last round last year at Donington Park with the BTCC, F3 and GT's the atmosphere was amazing (but a nightmare to get out but how cares)

Thats what im on about

[tvgod]

Originally posted by davydriveshaft
tvgod i think you've took what i was on about link ups in the wrong way im not on about BTCC, F3 and GT run to the same calender, i'm on about like we has the last round last year at Donington Park with the BTCC, F3 and GT's the atmosphere was amazing (but a nightmare to get out but how cares)

Thats what im on about

In that case, I agree with you (on both counts, as I decided to leave Donington after the toca feature race, and listened to the GT podium ceremony on the radio while still waiting to get out of the circuit.)

[oliver_sb85]

Maybe they are already planning a BTCC/F3/GT link up for sometime next season, note the wording of the press release on the 2004 calendar, it says that it was deliberately issued as early as possible so as other national series can plan their calendars around it, presumabely to avoid any major clashes but It might also mean there is an opportunity for a 'superweekend', most probably at Silverstone or Donington.

By the way I agree that the link ups where a great idea, I visited donny and brands last year and I am a big Sportscars fan so watching the GT's was great, but I had not seen an F3 race for a while and was suprised how fast and entertaining they were, a great showcase for the country's top racing series. I vaguely remember an Autosport news article saying an MSA working group was addressing the running of Brtish motosport and wanted to encourage more superweekend link-ups ? I will have to look it up

[redshoes]

The big crowd at Donington last year was more down to it being a CSMA meeting than the fact F3 and GT were there. This year's "CSMA Very Fast Show" meeting at Brands attracted some 40,000, and a similar figure the year before at Silverstone, both of which were little more than a clubie event.

[Paul Rayner]

I like the calendar. I like the F1 support, I like the fact that it starts earlier, I like the fact that Oulton regains its old Spring Bank Holiday slot (Oulton, because of its curfew and lack of running before 12, is better on a bank holiday).

The only thing I don't like is the "Rockingham/Knockhill bit."

If Knockhill is to return, I'd like to see Silverstone's championship round disappear instead. Rockingham needs all the big events it can get if it's going to be a success, and it's a better facility for Touring Cars than Silverstone, which is in the same county. I just hope we get a massive crowd this weekend to give it some security for next year.

[turneroptics]

just got home from rockingham, fantastic day, top racing and well organised.

back to the rock next year please!!!:D

[touring fan]

Definately, what a fantastic weekend, I've really enjoyed myself (plus I found the answer to the question "what happens in a lightning storm when you're at the top of a grandstand", I''ve been wondering that since I first went there). Big thumbs up to toca and rockingham. I hope we get to go there again next year.

[Les]

dump Silverstone and do Rock and Knock

[Sarah]

Thanks to everyone at Toca and Rockingham for a great day.

The only problem was having the tourers as the last race meant everyone left at the same time and it was slow getting out of the car park.

[acorn]

Originally posted by Sarah
The only problem was having the tourers as the last race meant everyone left at the same time and it was slow getting out of the car park.

saw that one coming when i looked at the schedule but i guess it was done that way partly because of rockinghams noise curfew(5.00pm i think on a sunday) and partly because of the live tv coverage. don't they normally have another support race on the later finishing meets?

[Les]

no trouble at all getting out of the car park - mind you we didn't leave until 6pm :)

[Reynard]

Originally posted by Les
no trouble at all getting out of the car park - mind you we didn't leave until 6pm :)

Errr, I didn't leave till seven. Had photos to download off the camera, a locker to empty and general catching up to do - such as eating lunch and grabbing a cup of tea.

Photographer? Easy life? You're kidding! :)

Actually, I've got some good photos (am currently in the middle of sorting them out) particularly of the first BTCC race, the Clios and the Porsches - unfortunately Igoofed a bit when the weather turned as I forgot to change the ISO rating on the camera (it was a borrowed one :() Anyways, Jonathan (the chap I was working for) grabbed a great shot of some Formula Ford drivers indulging in some fisticuffs after they took each other out! :)

In any case, a great day was had and I'm hoping BTCC returns to The Rock... However, I can't help thinking that the Tourers don't quite sound right... *lol*

P.S. I managed to pocket the badge off Alan Morrisson's Honda after it fell off at the corner where I was working! :D

[touringlegend]

Originally posted by Reynard
P.S. I managed to pocket the badge off Alan Morrisson's Honda after it fell off at the corner where I was working! :D


Wondered who'd nabbed that - realised his Honda had changed identity mid-race!! :D


Also, from the on board on Alan's car, there was a colour drawing of a car on the left side of his dash board - was that the result of a competition (i didn't know about!!! :D) or was it one of his kids (does he have any??_

[acorn]

a post today on the alan gow forum goes a long way to answering two questions i had about future calendars assuming he means what he says.
on the question put (what about 2 meetings at mondello?) he says "no" partly because it's the BRITISH touring car championship and eire's not in britain. so, there's the answer to the rockingham/knockhill dilemma, DUMP MONDELLO and have both rock and knock. also with the alignment with etcc specs, we won't have to sacrifice a home round to race 'away' on the continent.

[Amanda]

Acorn ~ that would suit me! I prefer Knockhill to Mondello any day!!!:D

[Jamie P-E]

Amanda,

I agree although mondello is good circuit it's abit out of the way and not everyone can attend hence the pathetic attendance numbers. I'd love to go knockhill as I have heard from you and Claire on what a fabulous track it is and from what I have seen on the telly it's action all the way and it's worth the 8 or so hour drive up there.

Bring back knockhill for 2004

[Alan]

The trick with Knockhill Jamie is to fly!! Seriously, it can work out alot cheaper than driving up and back.

We have been up twice and on both occasions flew from Luton - up on Saturday morning and back Sunday night. It is two long days but well worth it.

[Peter]

It was very interesting reading the views of the drivers in the Knockhill v Rockingham saga in Motosport News today.. Muller and Thompson were very supportive of the Rock; Neal and Morrison were indifferent and Phil Bennett favoured Knockhill.

[touringlegend]

Originally posted by Peter
and Phil Bennett favoured Knockhill.


As did Mike Nicholson of Vauxhall, because it's in the manufacturers interests to be represented as widely as possible. If the manufacturers all wanted Knockhill back, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be back there.

[GEDsjt]

Originally posted by touringlegend
I love Knockhill and that, but Knockhill vs. Rockingham - who do you think is going to win that one ... :(

you would think rockingham but knockhill provides good exposure in scotland for the manufacturers who may push for the move back.
also it is a favourite of alan gows, he was the man to first put it on the calendar in the first place.

[The Stig]

Is the British GP support a one off for 2004 ?
If not, lose the Silverstone round and have both Rockingham and Knockhill. Don't lose the second Brands Hatch, non Cart round.

[redshoes]

Originally posted by The Stig
Is the British GP support a one off for 2004 ?

If Bernie gets his way there will be no British GP in 2005 so in answer to your question, YES.

or maybe not ;)