Muller gets the point (or not)

[Alan]

I read in Autosport that YM has deposited his toys all over the pitlane again.

His grievance - he got less points than James Thompson at Croft!! (or to be more precise - he has had his lead cut from 28 points to 17).

Well I am sorry Yvan - but you didn't finish the first race and you finished behind JT in the second - what exactly do you expect?

It is the same for everyone. I don't think we want a return to the dropped scores system (as YM has suggested) as we want the championship winner to be the guy who did best. The 2000 results proved that dropped scores are not a good idea - unless you happened to be an Alain Menu fan of course.

Anyone else got any comments on this?

With apologies to all the YM fans I know - but I think you get my point!

[Jamie P-E]

I think he should stop moaning and just get on with it, I am getting a bit bored on hearing him moan at he race meeting:mad:

[Amanda]

I will start with an apology to some very good friends who are Yvan Muller fans!:D

However, I feel it is time that Mr Muller stopped complaining and got on with the racing! It seems that every time things go wrong his is whinging and throwing all his toys out of his pram!!! Is he getting worried that this might be the third year he finishes second??

It has to be good for the championship to see the points close up so we can have a good battle for the championship and may the best driver win!

It is also good news for me as my bet is not looking such a lost cause!!!!;)

[Ed- the MG fan]

Also I hate having dropped scores in a championship. In the end it will disadvatage the most consistant drivers, just like it did to Ried in 2000 which contributed to him not wining the 2000 BTCC, and the fact that Rademacher gave him a small nuge too

[Toto]

I write this as a fan of Muller, but entering a championship knowing the rules and then complaining about them/trying to get them changed is ridiculous.

I was also surprised to hear Yvan blaming Paul O'Neill for his crash in the first race. I don't think O'Neill could have done much more - there was nothing blatant in his actions. He had the inside line and Yvan took the outside at a corner notorious for first lap contact. Sometimes, it just happens.

I still think Muller deserves to win the title, though. His 'blip' aside, there is nobody to touch him for raw speed and racecraft. His move on Neal at Clervaux in race two was from someone on a different level. Simply brilliant. And don't give me all that ballast mullarky ...

[Les]

well I am an Alan fan so I am not sure how my views would affect his position or not but here goes....

I quite like the dropped scores scenario.

You say you want the best driver to win but if his car fails through no fault of his own then it's not the best driver who won it is it? It is a very good driver with a reliable car.
Who's the better driver - he who wins one race and then the engine blows in the next or he who finishes in midfield after a quiet day in both.

But it's not enough that his (and I am not saying Mullers or Matts or Alans just someone) worst 2 races are dropped. Maybe only failures can be dropped as dumping it in the gravel is not the sign of a good driver but how can that work???

In the abscence of a better scoring system (and there is no way I would want a speedway type of system) it is probably better the one we have got.

Right then... who's going to have a go at me this time ;)

[Claw]

REId is the true 2000 BTCC champion, and I would hate to see them return!

Muller should shut up.

[Alan]

Well Les - who would decide why a car stopped/failed in the first place? There are a miriad of reasons why cars fail, but I think pure mechanical or electrical failure, totally unrelated to being raced, would be very rare and difficult to prove. Engines get over-revved (easy to prove?), kerbs get whacked (more difficult) and pipe fittings get under/over tightened (almost impossible).

I think drivers have to take the rough with the smooth, failures are all part of the deal unfortunately, as is being taken out occasionally.

This is why I think dropped scores should not be adopted.

YM seems to be worse at taking the bad than others, but maybe he is the Eddie Irvine of BTCC and just says what all the others would like to say - who knows!

Maybe some of us more enthusiastic (lunatic?) fans should be allowed to award extra points for "good trys"? Now that would be interesting - and not a little dangerous!!!
:D

[Invincible]

Speaking as a fan of Anthony Reid, I have to say and excuse the pun that dropped scores were pointless. We already had weight ballast at the time, that was designed to stop domination and it worked, so why include dropping points, the championship was close anyway

[Les]

what a brilliant idea - supporters give them extra points for artistic impression, save of the day etc...

The only way to know exactly who was the better driver is to have identical cars and identical siuation (no Paul etc) - heck it would be impossible.

I suppose the points system could give more incentive for a win or podium - say another 5 points for 1, 2 or 3. Sometimes you do see the 'settle for a second or third' scenario rather than fighting to the last yard.

As for Mr Muller - a touch too much French for some (personally thought he was on top form this weekend - very chatty and no toy throwing anywhere near me) but I would prefer him with 'tantrums' to a 'wet week' any day.
You need the characters, the villians, the softies and wallies to give a good balance (and I am not saying who is who!)

[Paul Rayner]

Going into the last round in 2000, Anthony Reid said something which summed up dropped scores for me, and that was "I'm not a mathematican, so I don't know what I've got to do to win..."

In a championship which has a high number of fans (ie your Formula Ones, Champ Cars, DTM, BTCC, etc.) the scoring system should be simple, so that fans don't need a full season results table in front of them at the final round to figure out who's going to win.

As for Muller moaning - he lost 11 points! Big deal! The same thing could happen to James at the next race. Luck is part of racing, it's not enough to be good, you do have to be lucky.

[touring fan]

Originally posted by Les
In the abscence of a better scoring system (and there is no way I would want a speedway type of system) it is probably better the one we have got.

Right then... who's going to have a go at me this time ;)
What do you mean by a speedway type of system? (Not having a go, just a bit confused:))
I don't like dropped scores, it's confusing and to me it's a bit silly to take points away from consistent drivers but give a "get out of jail free" card to drivers (and teams) that haven't been able to compete reliably. As for getting caught up in somebody elses problem, well sometimes you have god luck and sometimes you don't, it;s the same for everybody.
Yvan Muller is starting to remind me of Alain Menu in some ways...

[Mocko]

If I got any amount of points I sure as hell wouldn't want anyone taking them away.

That's the thing about competition. You earned that 2 or 3 points just as much as you earn 15 or 12 points. If an engine goes, tough luck that's what something like the BTCC is all about. There's a teams and manufacturers competition. Engine failures affect those two.

I'm disapointed with Muller. I usually admire his professionalism.

[100%VauxhallFan]

Originally posted by Les
well I am an Alan fan so I am not sure how my views would affect his position or not but here goes....

I quite like the dropped scores scenario.

You say you want the best driver to win but if his car fails through no fault of his own then it's not the best driver who won it is it? It is a very good driver with a reliable car.
Who's the better driver - he who wins one race and then the engine blows in the next or he who finishes in midfield after a quiet day in both.

But it's not enough that his (and I am not saying Mullers or Matts or Alans just someone) worst 2 races are dropped. Maybe only failures can be dropped as dumping it in the gravel is not the sign of a good driver but how can that work???

In the abscence of a better scoring system (and there is no way I would want a speedway type of system) it is probably better the one we have got.

Right then... who's going to have a go at me this time ;) That's got to be the most sensible post I have read on this thread. I'm glad some people can see the point that a driver is trying to make - and not just think it's because they believe that the driver is "throwing his toys out of his pram" - yeah - because that's an educated opinion to make!

[Alan]

If Yvan was not throwing his toys out of the pram then his sense of timing is appalling!!! (and I do see his point - I have a zero, wouldn't it be good if I could drop it - yep - fair point, but as he only has one non-finish/zero, he would actually be worse off now than almost all the other drivers, assuming that two rounds are dropped).

You lose out to your nearest competitor then ask for dropped scores to be resurrected!! If he had suggested this at any other time then it would have been fine - but now?

Of course it is all academic as I am sure the scoring system would not be changed mid season would it?

[Reynard]

Originally posted by Amanda
However, I feel it is time that Mr Muller stopped complaining and got on with the racing! It seems that every time things go wrong his is whinging and throwing all his toys out of his pram!!! Is he getting worried that this might be the third year he finishes second??

Indeedy doodly Amanda. And he'll probably run out of toys to throw away if he's not careful - that is unless he has a major shareholding at Hamley's! ;)

I'm keeping fingers crossed that your wager is still alive.

Aaaaaanyway...

I don't agree with the dropped scores system as it sort of negates the typical ups-and-downs that are inherent in motor racing. One weekend you have a flier and the next weekend you're chewing gravel. If it is supposed to be a season-long championship, then shouldn't all the races count as a matter of course?

That's what I love about the ASCAR points scoring system though - everyone who takes the start accrues at least some points, and the whole distribution is down to consistency, with 175 available for a win, then 170, 165, 160 etc. Then you get 5 points for fastest lap, 5 for leading a lap and 5 for the most laps led. Then the first five on the grid get 5, 4, 3, 2 & 1 points respectively. Sounds complicated, but it is easy to figure out once you get used to it.

I think that the BTCC could learn a few lessons from this - though adopting this points system wholesale would probably not be popular.

Now there's a point to ponder...