Rear wheel drive start advantage cut

[Rapid Fit Mondeo]

This is a story on a popular motorsport website. BMW's will have to use a 'spec' 1st gear.

True?

[garethdphillips]

I just read that too. I hope its not true as I have plenty of opinions on that! Best wait to see it confirmed here first.

[kezbabybabe]

Hmm in what series? Could you provide a bit more information?

[Rapid Fit Mondeo]

BTCC. I assumed that was implied sorry.

There's quotes from Bennets and Neal about it too.

[Eunos]

Read it on Autosport, Honestly I don't like it...

Yes the Beemers got the better starts but after afew Laps the Lacettis etc would be up their Behinds again.

Personally i hope this idea is scrapped.

[garethdphillips]

Read it on Autosport, Honestly I don't like it...

Yes the Beemers got the better starts but after afew Laps the Lacettis etc would be up their Behinds again.

Personally i hope this idea is scrapped.

It's a difficult one isn’t it, as the advantage they have would surely vary depending on how much road there is at a given circuit before the first corner? Also despite a BMW winning the championship It seems to me that the Chevrolet is the car that needs slowing down! BMW's (like any car) have their strengths and weaknesses but this particular strength really didn’t seem to be all that great when you look at the overall running pace, and other rear wheel drive issues (Kerbs etc)

Possibly RML wont be running the Lacetti next year, but if they do you would put money on it flying away with the championship based on its performance in the 2nd part of the year. It seems to have a power and speed advantage.

Not to mention the straight line advantage of the TDI's last year...

I'm just going to say what nobody else wants to say; It looks like somebody doesn’t like BMW's, as they have been written out of the new regulations anyhow.

[kezbabybabe]

The problem this year has been that the BMWs have lost a little bit of weight so those starts were looking much more spectacular than previously.

I'm sure what ever decision Alan and Co make it would be the right one. :cool:

[Mondeo2]

I think the 1st gear penalty would be alot fairer than reapplying a weight penalty. The weight penalty penalises them for a full race distance. 1st gear won't.

[Sparkz]

I'm just going to say what nobody else wants to say; It looks like somebody doesn’t like BMW's, as they have been written out of the new regulations anyhow.

Alan has said numerous times before, Rear wheel drive wasn't written out of the championship, it just wasn't written in. Alan has also said that if there is enough RWD interest, then he would re-write RWD into the rules.

[Mondeo2]

Alan has said numerous times before, Rear wheel drive wasn't written out of the championship, it just wasn't written in. Alan has also said that if there is enough RWD interest, then he would re-write RWD into the rules.

Exactly, as I mentioned this is a way of ensuring no weight penalties and probably TOCA's efforts to find parity between fwd and rwd so they can be included within the NGTC and then no arguments over weight. If it doesn't work, I'm sure they'll think of something else.

[garethdphillips]

Alan has said numerous times before, Rear wheel drive wasn't written out of the championship, it just wasn't written in. Alan has also said that if there is enough RWD interest, then he would re-write RWD into the rules.

and there is a difference?

[cookingfat]

Alan has said numerous times before, Rear wheel drive wasn't written out of the championship, it just wasn't written in. Alan has also said that if there is enough RWD interest, then he would re-write RWD into the rules.

Firstly.. YES it is true!
And in reply to the above post.. 1, I think Alan Gows comments was towards MANUFACTURER interest. Which interestingly stands at NONE!

And 2, If you don't count manufacturers then lets look briefly at the 'possible' entry for 2010.

Ford Focus, 2-3 entries.
Honda Civic, 2- 4 entries.
Chevrolets, 2-4 entries.
BMW's 4-6 entries.
The BMW brand will have a higher presence than any other make!

It's a shame that yet again the BMW's are penalised for 'competing' in the BTCC!

[Bozlo]

I personally think slightly unfair as the BMW's take longer to get heat into the tyres than the fwd cars as well lets not forget this.

Plus if what Dick Bennetts has said about having to slip clutches possible repair bills etc. is that really that another team should have to spend budget that could be used for development on something such as clutches

[mbailey06]

To be fair, I can see it from both sides. It is a bit unfair, I'll admit that, but the starts can gain a great advantage, and has contributed to accidents in the past, Onslow-Cole/Turkington/Turner at Brands in 07 and Jelley/Shedden/Adam at Brands 09. I also don't ever remember the BMWs getting excellent starts in the 90's? Perhaps this was the reason why?

[e93Cab]

The apparent start line advantage only really comes into play when the track is dry. As anybody knows, RWD actually becomes a disadvantage when it's wet or damp. Does this not then further penalise RWD cars in the wet i.e. having to be in first gear for a longer period.

Whilst RWD can give an advantage from a standing start it also has detrimental effects at othertimes during the race, It is well documented that FWD cars can ride the kerbs better and can hande rear quarter contact much better than RWD vehicles.

Surely any percived advantage should be looked at over the whole race distance not just the first few hundred yards. FWD cars achieved a 2:1 win ratio during last season over the RWD, so it obviously wasn't that much of an advantage.

Finally, A wise man was recently heard to say “And, just as importantly, the excitement level in the championship was up. It was a fantastic title-fight that culminated in that amazing last round in front of a record crowd. In short, we had a sensational year.”.

So, as the saying goes, if it aint broke, don't fix it.......

[bigred]

the weight penalty that was changed for the beemer (30kg - 10kg) was for cars using the 6 speed sequential box hence WSR reverted to this box for last season.
forcing cars to run a "special" 1st cog would seem like a rather expensive excersise when a few lumps of lead would negate the advantage.
looking at the results last year i think that the regs were just about correct, no one car or team dominated. sure the beemers made it to the 1st corner ahead but u dont get points for leading into a bend.
wtcc addressed the same issue by using a rolling start in their 1st race and the chaos still follows (just at a higher pace) at the 1st corner

[Thorney]

Adding weight would affect the car in all areas though not just the start and I dont think thats the intention. I'm not defending the decision just suggesting weight is not an alternative for what they're trying to achieve.

[Rapid Fit Mondeo]

I don't see it as a agenda against RWD. Do you really think Alan Gow is going to try and force teams out as well as potential manufacturer entries (albeit very unlikely)?

I can see it from the FWD point of view. The advantage BMW have at the start is extreme. If you're a BMW then it lets you get away with much more in qualifying when you have a VIP pass to jump a couple of rows every start.

[Cleland Fan]

I also don't ever remember the BMWs getting excellent starts in the 90's? Perhaps this was the reason why?

Plenty of moments like that. Just look for footage of Jo Winkelhock's starts at Pembrey and Knockhill in 1993 for some examples of amazing startline traction. :D

[Mondeo2]

Plenty of moments like that. Just look for footage of Jo Winkelhock's starts at Pembrey and Knockhill in 1993 for some examples of amazing startline traction. :D
I seem to remember Joe taking the lead off the start from at least 5th on the grid. He was so quick the cars in front of him had barely moved.

[e93Cab]

The advantage BMW have at the start is extreme.

unless there's the slightest bit of moisture on the track, then it's a different story.

As I said before, the effect should be looked at over the lenght of a whole race not just the start. FWD cars won twice as many races as RWD cars last season, no to mention JP's incredible 3-in-a-day at Brands!!!!!

[Sparkz]

unless there's the slightest bit of moisture on the track, then it's a different story.

As I said before, the effect should be looked at over the lenght of a whole race not just the start. FWD cars won twice as many races as RWD cars last season, no to mention JP's incredible 3-in-a-day at Brands!!!!!

Mat Jackson proved that the BMW could be quick when its wet at Silverstone, then Turkington proved it could be quick when it was pouring with rain at Rockingham.

Anyways,
The reason there's so many more FWD 'wins' than there is RWD is because throughout the season, there has only been five RWD cars (six if you include the 120D), and there has been 15 plus FWD cars.

[e93Cab]

Of the 15 or so FWD cars only 6-8 can reasonably described as in regular contention for race wins.

Anyway, numbers, of cars, weather conditions, length of race etc... we can all sit here and argue one way or another till the cows come home.

However, I think one thing that we maybe all could agree with is that last season was fantastic. If you could guarantee that next season was going to be anywhere near as good as last, then I think we'd all be happy.

So why change a successful formula :confused:

[adzerrancoon]

and yet no-one was trying to stop the diesel seats off the line advantage, which was as good as a beemer, could spoil things for bmw's in series, but lets wait and see

[Sparkz]

and yet no-one was trying to stop the diesel seats off the line advantage, which was as good as a beemer, could spoil things for bmw's in series, but lets wait and see

The Seat's struggled getting off the line, its when they found traction they took off, the petrol engined cars were the same effectively, but because the TDi has more torque than the petrol engined cars, it goes quicker down the straight. ;):)

[bigred]

if rwd was so advantageous then why arent all the teams buying and using that style of car, the beemers have been to the fore in the last few years but there are a host of other rear wheel drives that would im sure fall within the s2000 touring car reg that people could develop. no one tells teams what car they must run (well till the new regs come in) so its up to them, they know there gonna be up against rwd before the start so they cant really moan.
the 320si has been in the championship for several years and only managed to win this year so all the percieved advantage doesnt seem to have helped as much as people think

[garethdphillips]

if rwd was so advantageous then why arent all the teams buying and using that style of car, the beemers have been to the fore in the last few years but there are a host of other rear wheel drives that would im sure fall within the s2000 touring car reg that people could develop. no one tells teams what car they must run (well till the new regs come in) so its up to them, they know there gonna be up against rwd before the start so they cant really moan.
the 320si has been in the championship for several years and only managed to win this year so all the percieved advantage doesnt seem to have helped as much as people think

Clearly RWD is advantageous at the start line, I don’t think anybody is going to argue that it isn’t. I just don’t think that the BMW is the strongest overall car out there to begin with. It doesn’t seem to have the best qualification pace, outright race pace, nor does it seem to be the strongest or best car to progress through the pack with.
Id of thought its start advantage levelled the field, therefore taking away its start advantage would possibly topple the balance of things enough that the car would fail to be as competitive. I’ve got no facts to base any of this on, I can only go on what I see in the races like most of us can and personal opinion.

I hope I'm proved wrong, and I probably will be !

[09chapmang]

I have opions if gets the job done and its avialble for them and not breaking the rules let them be:confused:

[Jackal]

Don't mind a spec 1st gear so long as the Beemers don't lose all their startline advantage. Its great watching them trying to sprint through at starts and to be fair the teams who pick those cars should expect their investment to pay off. Am sure TOCA have got it spot on as usual and thank the Lord they've not gone for those horrible rolling starts used in WTCC.

[09chapmang]

But like someone has said if they are that good why has other teams not picked up on it.

[simon1220]

But like someone has said if they are that good why has other teams not picked up on it.

Cause there arent an unlimited supply of the cars available, most teams would be unable to buy one new and i expect there arent many second hand ones going around, so the teams end up with the cars that they can afford.

[bigred]

Cause there arent an unlimited supply of the cars available, most teams would be unable to buy one new and i expect there arent many second hand ones going around, so the teams end up with the cars that they can afford.

there are as many rear wheel drives out there as there are fwd wtcc is probably split 60/40 fwd/rwd granted all the rwd are beemers, but all 5 works beemers are usually available for sale at the close of a season. they are also happy to sell the same new car to teams and give them support, neither seat nor chevie sell the same car/engine the works teams run

in btcc terms jackson had a beemer or two forsale last year but no one chose to buy them

[Freddie]

But like someone has said if they are that good why has other teams not picked up on it.

Because of the disadvantages of RWD. You have to lift to correct a slide whereas your rival in a FWD is nailing the throttle. (Tap and pass!) Your tyres take an age to warm up. You are carrying extra weight for the whole race. Or. You have only 5 gears and they are in an "H" pattern.

And if you are happy to get over all those hurdles you find that the start straight is too narrow to pass so you are boxed in anyway. (Knockhill and Snetterton.)