Muller - Reid Fight!

[Croft fan]

I have just been on the Autosport site and read the article about the Muller - Reid fight. I have always been a fan of Muller, but the pic that it shows of Muller throwing Reid over the bonnet of his car looks uncalled for. So they had a coming together, that is what touring car racing is all about, there was no need to get like that. It reminds me of when Rydell and Reid had a coming together at Brands in 98 and Rydell went up to Reid and grabed him by the throat. Makes good TV, and gets more publicity, but it should not happen. It shows just how much Muller wants this BTCC crown. Maybe they should look at Reids driving standards scince its not the first time, not that that should excuse Muller.
I just hope that this dose not affect the championship.

[kevin ritson]

Yvan seems to suffer the odd bit of memory loss. Remember how annoyed he was with Plato in 2001 when they clashed at Silverstone, yet last year at Brands he was quite happy to take Thompson out of the race.

Some of Muller's moves have been at best robust and although I write this without having seen the latest incident (apart from plenty of dust behind the trees!), it seems that you should expect to take what you give.

I'm sure my opinion may change when I see the footage on ITV but there's no excuse for his actions in Parc Ferme (however, I'm sure it'll make good TV!)

[MaL]

I have the incident on video - was stood by the Parc Ferme fencing when Muller pulled up right in front of me then jumped out, ran over to Reid and shouted a bit, then grabbed the lower front of the helmet, gave him a good shake, then as Reid tried to walk off, YM gave him a shove for good measure....

[touring fan]

I hope he gets a nice penalty for that. Why does he continue to stay in the series and winge about it all the time. If it's so bad why not join a different one and give us all some peace.

[runnyhunny]

Mal,

How about an MPEG of that sporting moment? :)

[MaL]

When I get the tape back from ITV, I'll try to rig sommat up... Trouble is, I dont have any way of doing video capture from my camcorder :(

[Craig Antill]

You're all gonna love the punishment when you hear it...!! :rolleyes:

[Sim_Da_BTCC_Man]

His licence has been suspended for 11 days by the MSA.

So he returns for Donington :rolleyes:

[Claire]

I'm sorry but what sort of punishment is that, how many BTCC races are there over the next 11 days, none. This now shows younger drivers and anyone else who was watching or have heard about it that having altercations in parc ferme isn't a big thing as the MSA will turn a blind eye or give out a penalty that is as useful as a chocolate teapot. I for one did not support Muller and this gives me even more reason not to like him, it's a shame that James has quite a points gap to close nothing would give me more pleasure than to see him retain his title and for Muller to lose out again. :mad:

[Amanda]

Well said Claire!

I was in parc ferme and witnessed the incident, it was disgusting! A professional sportsman should never behave like that.

An 11 day ban is pathetic! Why bother? That is just letting him get away with it as usual!!

All I can say is the best of luck to James. If Muller wins he will not be a worthy champion.

[MaL]

So what exactly happened behind the trees?? I for one would like to know what made Muller so passionate about what happened, or was it just Mediterranian Red Mist?

[McKay]

i heard on an unofficial forum that it was a suspension for the reast of the season. i dont know how true this is

[DavidRose]

Before I submit my opinions, there are a couple of points which I feel need clarification.

1. MN's car came to rest in what could best be described as a dangerous position during race 2. No safety car!

2. A bumper falls off and safety car is called.

If MN's car was hit at speed while it sat there who knows what might have happened. Equally one could ask what would have been the outcome of someone collecting the bumper.

I'm puzzled, anyone else have similar views?


As for Reid's pass on YM'. Reid has been in the game for many years. His racecraft is second to none. Reid went for the gap left by YM'.
As for YM' ,well I recall JT' coming up the outside of him at last years BH' meeting on the very same corner. We all know the result of that collision. Don't recollect JT' grabbing the Frenchmen round the neck though.

I don't think the title is in the Frenchman's hand's just yet.
Alot can happen in the run in to a season. Remember BH' 2001,
and the turn around at the conclusion of 2002.
I don't think JT' should be written off just yet!

As for YM' and AR' time will tell.

[R5CPD]

I saw that the last DTM meeting had a supporting Boxing Match after the race. :p Seems to show that Muller wanted to do the same with Reid!!

Seriously, whatever the incident on the track. There's no excuse for post-race fist-i-cuffs. I'm really suprised at the light penalty, especially given what happened with the fighting Formula Ford drivers earlier in the season. :confused:

[Nikh_mg]

I havent heard much of what happened, just what was on Motors TV which didnt say anything about parc ferme...but there is no way Reid should be punnished for the move. If you watch it, you see Reid CLEARLY alongside Muller, then Muller TURNED IN on Reid like he wasnt there....now when 2 cars touch they almost always go straight on cos they cant steer, thats why it looked like Reid outbraked himself.......all i can say is stupid french f**ker

[Jamie P-E]

Originally posted by Amanda
Well said Claire!

I was in parc ferme and witnessed the incident, it was disgusting! A professional sportsman should never behave like that.

An 11 day ban is pathetic! Why bother? That is just letting him get away with it as usual!!

All I can say is the best of luck to James. If Muller wins he will not be a worthy champion.

As Claire said an 11 day endorsement is Rediculous.

In my opinion the MSA and TOCA should not tollerate that sort of behaviour. As alot of people are saying- is this Muller cracking under pressure. I race karts and if myself or any other driver behaved in that sort of manor during or after a race we would get an instant ban. the Golden Rule (in my book) is that someone knocks you off DON'T retaliate after the race just try and forget about it, something that Mr Muller forgot to do.

Lets hope that he learns from this incident and stops acting like a spoilt little BRAT!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[cos]

So... Reid took himself and Muller into the gravel at Druids and Muller is so angry that he takes it out on Reid physically, even though they both only lose 2 places each.

Hands up who remembers Muller taking Thompson off and out of the race at the same place this time last year? Don't remember Thompson resorting to violence though :rolleyes:

[Nikh_mg]

Another show of hands for those who remember Rockingham where Muller punted Reid twice, and Reid hit Muller once and gave him a push and Muller complained how "Reid gets away with everything, the slighest thing and Vauxhall get blamed" well he's a bit wrong there. And then yesterday he complained that the safety car is "only brought out if a Vauxhall leads" and then "I dont think Reid has ever made a fair move" well corect me if im wrong but Reid has to be one of the best guy out there at overtaking. Maybe Muller never did karting, if he ever did imagine the complaints he would make....my brother races in karting, and there is more contact in a heat than there is in a season of the BTCC. Sorry Yvan but BTCC fans hav never accepted crybaby whigners, so get lost!!!

[Jamie P-E]

Originally posted by Nikh_mg
Another show of hands for those who remember Rockingham where Muller punted Reid twice, and Reid hit Muller once and gave him a push and Muller complained how "Reid gets away with everything, the slighest thing and Vauxhall get blamed" well he's a bit wrong there. And then yesterday he complained that the safety car is "only brought out if a Vauxhall leads" and then "I dont think Reid has ever made a fair move" well corect me if im wrong but Reid has to be one of the best guy out there at overtaking. Maybe Muller never did karting, if he ever did imagine the complaints he would make....my brother races in karting, and there is more contact in a heat than there is in a season of the BTCC. Sorry Yvan but BTCC fans hav never accepted crybaby whigners, so get lost!!!


Well Said that Arrogant *** should be taught a very harsh lesson.

[Amanda]

Originally posted by Jamie P-E
Well Said that Arrogant *** should be taught a very harsh lesson.

In my opinion an 11 day ban is not a harsh lesson! Where did the 11 days come from, why not 10, 14 or better still 30 like the Formula Ford guys?!

[Nikh_mg]

If it was 11 days of race meetings it would be a fairer punnishment, how does a 11 day ban affect him, there nothing on then

[Jamie P-E]

Originally posted by Amanda
In my opinion an 11 day ban is not a harsh lesson! Where did the 11 days come from, why not 10, 14 or better still 30 like the Formula Ford guys?!

Sorry Amanda, I ment that he should be banned for the rest of the year:o :o

[The Stig]

Had this incident occurred earlier in the season, or to a driver not in contention for the championship, surely a more appropriate penalty would have been handed down.

Throughout this season, Yvan Muller has undermined his considerable driving talent with spiteful or ill considered remarks disrespecting his fellow drivers.

He probably will become champion, but it won't be his driving for which he will be best remembered.


This series needs hard and experienced drivers like Anthony Reid and Yvan Muller slapping tanks for 35 laps twice every fortnight.
Yvan Muller should acquire that "rugby mentality" where, despite thumping lumps out of each other for the duration of the contest, once the flag drops, competitors retire to the bar with a handshake and no ill feeling.

And then Stig woke up !!

[DavidRose]

I personally feel that MSA and TOCA have given YM' a minor slap of the wrist.
How on earth can a ban that doesn't even run into a crucial race date be considered to be a punishment? I would imagine YM' is sitting somewhere with a smug grin on his face. After all losing out on a Friday practice is hardly going to hurt him.

If a certain JP' had been the offending driver as opposed to the Frenchmen a more serious punishment would have resulted...

There are those who feel that certain organisers want YM' to wear the crown for 2003, and I am afraid that I fall into that category!

YM' may have had 15 podium's this year, he maybe an top class driver, but you don't take the law into your own hands!

Luck maybe on Mr Muller's side now, but come the end of the season .........
:rolleyes:

[Amanda]

Originally posted by DavidRose

There are those who feel that certain organisers want YM' to wear the crown for 2003, and I am afraid that I fall into that category!
:rolleyes:

If we could find the trophy it probably has his name on it already!

[The Stig]

Lets all hope the engraver can spell, "petulant boor"

[touringlegend]

Ludacris is what it is - strange how the ban is conveniently 11 days isn't it!!!

I hope Yvan Muller reads this forum - because I just want to tell him - he'd have far more respect if he could take incidents like a man - instead of resorting to insane acts because someone has given him a taste of his own medicine.

[McKay]

this whole thing has me disgusted
i hope vauxhall have harsh words with him. like we dont want you anymore

[R5CPD]

Sorry, I can't see Vauxhall doing anything. Muller always seems to be in the right as far as they are concerned. :mad:

[Amanda]

I don't think Vauxhall will be very happy about this. A driver fighting is not good PR.

[The Stig]

I don't think Yvan Muller reading this forum would necessarily be a bad thing. A great many knowledgeable people can't all be wrong. Touringlegend is quite right, even a grudging respect won't happen until Mr Muller starts to lose graciously.

[Croft fan]

Amanda, about the PR. Look at how many people have added to this forum, to the normal amount for one thread. I only started it this morning and already it has 3 pages of comments. Although it is bad PR, all PR is good, as it gets people talking about the championship and the Vauxhall team.
Although I'm a Muller fan, what he did was not right by any means and should have some more punishment, but it would not be good for James Thompsonto win the championship out of default (if Muller got a race ban) and James would not want to win it that way.

Reid is no inocent party in all of this, he may be a very good racing driver but he is also prone to taking off people and then not being man enough to hold up his hand and say it was my fault and I am sorry.

Will try to spend a lot of time at park furme at the next rounds at Donington. If any one id there, see you.

[R5CPD]

Originally posted by Croft fan
Reid is no inocent party in all of this, he may be a very good racing driver but he is also prone to taking off people and then not being man enough to hold up his hand and say it was my fault and I am sorry.

Surely, you could accuse almost all top touring car drivers of this. It's a series where the lines between hero and villian are sometimes pretty vague. ;)

However, I can't think of too many times where the championship leader has physically assaulted another driver. This sort of 'Road Rage' has no place whatsoever in the BTCC and I'm very disapointed that the MSA havn't reflected this in the punishment they have given to Muller.

[Alan Gow]

Perhaps I can clear up a couple points;

1. In any matter involving physical incidents (such as happened in parc ferme) it is a regulation within the MSA Blue Book that the matter is dealt with directly by the MSA appointed Stewards. Therefore TOCA had no involvement whatsoever in either the enquiry or the penalty.

2. The penalty given to Anthony Reid in that same race (Official reprimand, £500, licence endorsed three penalty points) was not related to the Muller/Reid incident. It was for passing a (lapped) car under a yellow flag.

[DavidRose]

I recall him declining a handshke with a certain driver following a similar incident at Silverstone during the run in to the 2001 championship.......manners my son, manners?

[runnyhunny]

Hmm... this does sound slightly dubious.

If a driver does something wrong, then they should be dealt with. Their position in the championship (or anything like it) should never, ever, be taken into account.

Sadly, the situation in the Parc Ferme looks like yet another focal point for younger drivers.

Michael Schumacher got away with driving into another car to try and win a title. He also frequently gets away with poor/dangerous on-track etiquette.

And now it's a similar deal within the BTCC. Unfortunately, it sends out the wrong message.

However, I'm prepared to give both Anthony and Yvan the benefit of the doubt. They are both superb racers, and generally nice people. I think we should wait and see.

[Frank Rizzo]

Post race fights are exactly what we need. Come on, admit it - you all call it disgusting, but it's ****** exciting. Think James Hunt, think Ayrton Senna.

You're all so ****** negative! I missed it as was at Snet, but looking forward to the replay on 416 this week. Hope they show the fight too.

Legends are borne of things like this, and you all know I'm not wrong.

And........begin.

[Mat C]

Hi their peeps ! :D My 1st post on the TOCA forum but certainly not my 1st experience of Toca and the BTCC. Been to every race this season, infact i even have my car on display on one of the trade stands :) !

Anyway, i totally agree with the general feeling going around on this thread and the un-proffesional nature of Yvan's conduct, a man who is looked upon as a proffesional driver and potential holder of the title. What happened on track is purely a racing incident that, given the opportunity to take a gap, any racing driver would do the same. Why Yvan had to resort to bullying a fellow driver around is beyond me. Having met him, Anthony is a gentleman and a very proffesional driver and deserves more respect than that.

Also, are the people who hand out these punishments biased to Vauxhall as they seem to have totally forgoten the incident in May at Brands Hatch where Thompson deliberatly shunted Turkington off into the tyre wall with 2 laps remaining, a certain 2nd place for Colin was robbed.

11 day ban. What an insult to the entire system. :mad:

[batman]

I have to sort of agree with Mr. Rizzo :cool:

We all know it wasn't a nice thing to do (and it happens a lot more than you think - remember how filled with adrenaline these guys are straight after a race) - but look at what it's done - it's promoted a debate and even one or two national newspapers reported the incident!

So it doesn't really matter what side of the fence you sit on - it's being talked about and that is exactly what the BTCC needs.

The more we realise it isn't just about the cars and the tracks - but also about the characters behind the helmets and the dramas / freindships between them, the BTCC will begin to widen its audience - and that can only be a good thing... :D

[Nikh_mg]

The only good thing that could come out of this is if Muller decides to leave cos of such a lack of support for him. For example, at the CART round at Brands this year I was watching from the exit of Paddock and Hughes' move on Muller into Paddock where they touched and both went sideways( Muller more to blame for closing the door when an MG was there AGAIN!!) Muller then went sideways in the gravel and lost several places, the whole crowd down at Paddock, including me, started cheering and generally laughing at Muller....except for a French couple who were watching right infront of us and looked very dissaproving at our reactions to it......must be a French connection......soon after that they walked off :D....

Point is, who needs Muller when Astra have Paul O'Neill, dunno if anyone else has noticed but what a guy! he is totally in it for the racing, winning doesnt matter, every race when he is on the podium he is upbeat and really sporting and cheerful, did you see him freaking at Matt Neal for his last corner move.....which may I add was far far worse than the Muller Reid incident, and he just got a fine. Paul is just what the BTCC needs, it was great seeing him congratulating Colin for his maiden victory....I think we will see lots from them 2 in the future

On another note, it was all overshadowed by the Muller Reid incident but another blooper by Neal in Race 1, again involved with O'Neill, they had both just passed the heavy Reid and then Neal attepted to get in the pits by driving through Paul and almost forcing him into the pits with him....that was much worse than what Reid aparently did. Ive seen the on track incident again today and Reid was not it the wrong, Muller turned on Reid and then when they touched they went straight on.


So basically....
O'Neill = great sportsman and driver
Turkington = great driver
Reid = great oldie who can make very good moves
Muller = moaning a$$ hat should GO HOME!

There my rant over

[Claire]

I'm not so sure that all this PR is good for the BTCC, sure people are talking about it and papers are reporting it but for all the wrong reasons. We should be promoting the fact that Colin and Warren took their first wins for MG, Carl and Dan got indie wins and Paul continues to show that he is a very talented driver, not the fact that a driver who should know better was grabbing the throat of another driver who made an aggressive move on him during a race. I still can't see what good the ban does, sure no practice time at Donny but how many times has Muller been round there and they do have 2 other cars to compare data and set up with. I'm very disappointed at how the powers that be have dealt with this. :mad:

[Frank Rizzo]

Oh puurleease!

"O'Neill doesn't care about the winning". Sure he doesn't! Just wants to race and come home last right?

Don't tell me that there is one driver in the entire field that doesn't care about winning. Believe me, they would not have got this far. I agree that Paul is a nice guy - he really is, but it is about more than that. If you want to really involve the spectators, and bring more in, it has to be more passionate, more intense, and more engaging than that.

OK, I'm not suggesting that part of the official package should be getting drivers to have a fight in Parc Ferme after every race, but what I do think is that if you have someone that is SO passionate about his racing and winning, that he risks the championship with an outburst such as Muller's, that is a great thing for the series. People will be intrigued and want to watch what else is happening over the season (or on track at the next race - I know what I'll be looking out for at the next meeting).

You need good guys and bad guys in the series - it works. If we had 20 Paul O'Neills going around the track, it would be boring as hell. Would the BTCC be weaker as a package without Muller? Definately. I'm so glad he stayed on when others like Menu drifted away. And believe me, I'm not even rooting for him (and I hate the French lol ;) ) - I'd love to see Thommo do the job again. But I understand why it's important for impulsive and passionate drivers like him to be in the series. This thread proves it.

[Amanda]

I am glad to see that I am not the only one who has noticed Muller seems to make a habit of turning in on people! He did it to Jason at Silverstone in 2001, James at Brands last year and now this latest incident with Anthony Reid.

I agree with Claire that this sort of PR is bad for the series. We go to watch motorsport if we wanted to watch fighting we would go and see boxing instead!

[Frank Rizzo]

Originally posted by Claire
I'm not so sure that all this PR is good for the BTCC, sure people are talking about it and papers are reporting it but for all the wrong reasons.

So Claire - would you prefer that we had the usual coverage in the national papers - none at all?

Do you seriously think that people who know nothing of and have no experience of the BTCC will see that report and be put off finding out more about the series?

We got coverage and PR - more than anything else this season has done. It's a good thing, believe me.

[Nikki P]

Personally I don't think there is much more to say in this discussion as it has all been said, but at the risk of repeating what other people I would like to give my opinion.

Muller should grow up and learn to take it as well as he dishes it out and if he does truely want to win the championship he should try to keep his cool in the second half of the season. If he channeled half as much energy into closing the championship as he does in whinging, moaning and blaming everybody else for everything, then maybe he would have already won a title by now. The pressure clearly gets to him towards the end of the year and this latest 'incident' demonstrates what has now become desperation.

I actually think he is (obviously) a very talented driver who is more than capable of winning the BTCC, but it is his attitude and manner that I have a problem with. Even if he does keep it together long enough to win it this year his behaviour at the weekend, I feel, will have tainted his victory overall.

[Nikh_mg]

Well done Nikki, you've basically summed up everything in one :D
I wish I was at Donnington next month, I would be on full pi$$ off Muller protest mode, I guess i'll have to wait till Oulton and dish out my booing for him then.....Wouldnt that be great if he won the championship and was celebrating with the crowd booing him :D Cos that's all he deserves

[batman]

Gotta say that Frank Rizzo is talking a ot of sense. He is being a realist.

It's great that a lot of people here aren't happy with Muller - it's this drama that gets a wider audience curious and want to know more.

Personally, I'm not that fussed - but I do want the BTCC to be bigger and better and like it or not, it's things like this that contribute to that happening.

It is only then that the newpapers will start reporting on what a great first win it was for Colin...

:D

[Nikki P]

Originally posted by Nikh_mg
Well done Nikki, you've basically summed up everything in one :D
I wish I was at Donnington next month, I would be on full pi$$ off Muller protest mode, I guess i'll have to wait till Oulton and dish out my booing for him then.....Wouldnt that be great if he won the championship and was celebrating with the crowd booing him :D Cos that's all he deserves

Luckily I'll be at both, so I'll boo a bit harder at Donnigton for you! ;) :D

[Nikh_mg]

Luckily I'll be at both, so I'll boo a bit harder at Donnigton for you!

:D:cool: good good, lucky ******, ive only bin to one round this season 'cos my brother races karting and he's always racing on BTCC rounds so I never get to go to many rounds:mad:

[Mat C]

I happen to know of a certain bunch of people that already have their protest mapped out for the cheese eating surrender monkey ! Should be fun to watch ! :D

[Claire]

It will be interesting to see what sort of reaction Muller gets at Donny, I remember a few banners at the race that Phil Bennet was banned from ( those were in support of him and agaisnt toca ) if I had the time and the artistic talent I would run one up myself, but I don't so I will have to think of other ways to let them know how I feel. ;)

[kestrel]

OK ... all you 'guys and gals' out there that think the 'Muller punishment' is a farce, perhaps we should show him how WE ALL FEEL ... when (unfortunately I think it's inevitable) he steps up on the podium at Oulton to collect his championship trophy we should all show him how unworthy he is and 'boo' !!!!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Nikki P]

Originally posted by kestrel
OK ... all you 'guys and gals' out there that think the 'Muller punishment' is a farce, perhaps we should show him how WE ALL FEEL ... when (unfortunately I think it's inevitable) he steps up on the podium at Oulton to collect his championship trophy we should all show him how unworthy he is and 'boo' !!!!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Here, here!! I'm with you on that!!

Another point aswell, I have a feeling whether he win or looses this championship that this will be his last year. I think the only reason he's still here now is he feels has something to prove. If he wins he has proven himself and if he looses he'll run back home. What do you guys think?

[kestrel]

Great Nicki P ..:D

Any other supporters out there ? ;)

[Amanda]

Kestrel ~ I will support your campaign!

In my opinion when Muller collects his trophy, as I posted earlier his name is probably already on it, he will not be a worthy champion!

[bramble]

I have been reading this thread with interest - but not having seen the coverage or heard both sides of the story i'm not going to comment.

However what I would like to say is that the use of foul and racist language is not welcome in this forum.

[steve]

do not be to hard on muller. because had fight for all his wins. and he may tell vauxhall to pull out if he not playing at donny ?:eek:

[mikew]

I support the idea of some sort of protest. If the stewards have ducked the issue by imposing a ban which expires before the next race (er, isn't that NO penalty then?) then the fans should let Mr Muller know that his behaviour is not acceptable.

How about in the pit lane walkabout we queue up at the VX stand to get the autographed cards from Paul and James, but then we refuse to accept Yvan's cards, and instead give him cards which we have signed saying "say no to bullies" (or some such appropriate message)? Alternatively I guess we could ask him to write "To Anthony, Best Wishes from Yvan" - that would probably get him rattled if a few hundred of us asked for it!

Even before this latest incident he was not exactly popular with many in the crowd, but now I wonder how he can dare show his face in the walkabout.

I was in Paddock Hill Grandstand on Monday and the cheering when Colin passed Yvan on the last lap was deafening, but it was surpassed by the whoops of delight when Yvan went off at Druids - whatever the rights or wrongs of Anthony's passing move it was VERY popular with the crowd.

If (when) Muller does get crowned champion I think he is going to be the least popular champion we have ever seen.

Remember when Schumacher tried to bully Villeneuve on the track at the end of 1997 ? He was stripped of all his points for that season, AND made to do some community service too (talking about road safety!). Now that was an appropriate punishment for a bully. But suspending Muller's licence until the next race for physically assualting another driver - doesn't seem appropriate somehow does it?

[Frank Rizzo]

Originally posted by bramble
I have been reading this thread with interest - but not having seen the coverage or heard both sides of the story i'm not going to comment.

However what I would like to say is that the use of foul and racist language is not welcome in this forum.

I'm sure it's not, but just in case that is aimed at me, the word used in both occasions was b*oody. Hardly foul. And racist? perhaps you didn't notice the lol and ;) behind the comment. But of course I'm sure that it wasn't aimed at me and that justifying myself is totally unneccessary.

[Frank Rizzo]

Keep discussing it kids! Anger is energy, and energy is infectious. All good for the series. I haven't posted on here for months and here I am.

I think this is a triumph of PR. Let's not protest at Mullet. Let's run a book on what happens at Donny.

Evens - Reidy gets punted off at first corner by Mullet.

2-1 - Reidy punts Mullet off in first 5 laps.

3-1 - Hughesy decides to join the fray and sneaks a sly one on Mullet in scrutineering.

4-1 - Paul O'Neill decides to live up to his newly crowned title of "People's Champion" (wrested from Matt at the last Brands race) and acts as mediator between the two warring gladiators, like a fast driving Kofi Annan (perhaps deliberately qualifying between them).

10000-1 - A clean, contact free race ensues, and both shake hands aftwerwards.


:D

[touring fan]

All he loses in the way of track time is the free practice sessions for the donnington meeting. Hardly worth it seeing as he has the telemetry from 2 team mates to look at. He's effectively gotten away with it (probably just because he's going for the championship and if he was banned for the race it might not seem so exciting).
Perhaps we should all approach him with a copy of this weeks motorsport news to sign, right on the picture of him with his fists up and his eyes bulging out of their sockets. :D

[Jamie P-E]

Originally posted by Amanda
Kestrel ~ I will support your campaign!

In my opinion when Muller collects his trophy, as I posted earlier his name is probably already on it, he will not be a worthy champion!


:) Count me in too, I'll make sure I'll do my heckle on his car at Donny;)

[Nikh_mg]

I'll be at Oulton and I will be booing at the top of my voice when he collects the trophy!!!!!!

I'm definately for ignoring Muller i nthe pitlane walkabout....my brother did it last year to Phil Bennet cos of when he took Soper off in 2001! He asked my brother if he wanted his autograph and he said NO....lol

[GEDsjt]

when you say you'll boo when muller gets the trophy i hope you mean for second in the championship, he aint won it yet!!

Oh and nikki p lovin that stuff! i'm with ya gal!

[touringlegend]

Rizzo is right - PR whether its for good or bad reasons is good in the end anyway.

Reading about someone taking a win is hardly as interesting and as encouraging as reading about a fight in Parc Ferme!!

Not a fan of Muller anyway, but I have to admit I would be sad to see him leave - we don't want a bunch of drivers who are all cosy and invite each other round for tea do we ?

[Nikh_mg]

I wouldnt say without Muller it would be "cosy", most of the great racing this year hasnt involved Muller. And then it really would be the BRITISH Touring Car Championship

[touringlegend]

Not until it's back at Knockhill it isn't..oh and Pembrey..;)

[Nikh_mg]

Well driverwise...

[Frank Rizzo]

Originally posted by Nikh_mg
I wouldnt say without Muller it would be "cosy", most of the great racing this year hasnt involved Muller. And then it really would be the BRITISH Touring Car Championship

Hmmm. Like if they kicked Dumbreck, Paffett, Menu et al out of DTM, then it really would be the DEUTSCH TM.......a little naive mate.

Thanks for the support Touring Legend. I agree in that I don't particularly support Muller, but the fact is he has brought a lot to the championship, and it would miss him.

I note with interest nobody has taken up any of my odds yet lol.

[Moderator 1]

Originally posted by bramble
I have been reading this thread with interest - but not having seen the coverage or heard both sides of the story i'm not going to comment.

However what I would like to say is that the use of foul and racist language is not welcome in this forum.

Bramble ~ I am unable to send you a PM so please PM me and let me know exactly which posts you have a problem with. Thanks.

[Frank Rizzo]

Originally posted by Frank Rizzo
Post race fights are exactly what we need. Come on, admit it - you all call it disgusting, but it's ****** exciting. Think James Hunt, think Ayrton Senna.

You're all so ****** negative! I missed it as was at Snet, but looking forward to the replay on 416 this week. Hope they show the fight too.

Legends are borne of things like this, and you all know I'm not wrong.

And........begin.

Mod - I think it may be the above and the one in which I said, tongue in cheek, that I hate the French. I have clarified it thereafter. I wish not to offend, but my views are contrary to many (but certainly not all) on this board. I didn't realise that b*oody would be starred out, thought it inoffensive.

Frank Rizzo.

[Nikh_mg]

bramble, if you mean racist towards the french, cos thats all I can see....chill out, we're British, it's in our blood to insult the french

[Le Mans]

Originally posted by Nikh_mg
bramble, if you mean racist towards the french, cos thats all I can see....chill out, we're British, it's in our blood to insult the french

Here you go moderator....

Let's see some of you guys say you do not agree with this. I will leave BTCC if it gets racist. I HATE racism.

[Frank Rizzo]

Originally posted by Le Mans
Here you go moderator....

Let's see some of you guys say you do not agree with this. I will leave BTCC if it gets racist. I HATE racism.

A kind of 'ethnic cleansing' of British race series.

But I don't think we can attribute that much credibility to these posts, Le Mans. I don't think there is a raciscm problem in BTCC.

Or maybe I'm wrong and my original "I don't support Muller (and I hate the French lol ;) )" comment WAS out of order, even if it was tongue in cheek and meant as a joke?

[Le Mans]

Amazingly, I posted a REALLY interesting article (for free) on this forum that was very informative (14 hours before BTCCPages.com even knew about it) and it was edited out by the moderator!
Information is a 'no no' here but racism is "well I am not sure cos I don't really know"
How long do you think this post will last!?

[Frank Rizzo]

Still here so far geez! PM me the article, yeah?

[MAINEMAN]

I must say how disappointed i am to read alot of peoples thoughts about ivan muller.He's not one of my favourite drivers either but i do have a lot of respect for him he's a very talented driver and in my opinion he deserves to win the championship this year.Having missed out a few times already he derserves it for his quality driveing and he has shown his determination to win the btcc.While of course i don't agree what he done to anthony reid at brands hatch i think that everyone will admit that in the heat of the moment such incidents can happen and they do in all kinds of sports.Pressure get's to us all and sometimes it breaks us and obviously thats what happened ivan at brands.In my opinion it was a racing incident that we all love to see in btcc and it does'nt happen enough anymore like it did a couple of years ago.To say either was at fault would be unfair on both drivers.It's not the kind of publicity that we want btcc getting but it got alot of peoples attention iv'e had alot of people saying it to me that would not even watch a touring car race let alone attend one.

[JLD]

There has been much said on this topic so far. The incident in question did not happen during a race, so should not be dealt with by deducting points. The incident was assault, nothing more, nothing less. Where this has happened in other sports (e..g. football) there has sometimes been police involvement. If a complaint has been made then Muller could be detained for questionning (probably won't happen, but technically could).

Some have said that they would like to see Muller win the title because he's missed out on it in the past. This is racing - fastest wins - doesn't this mean that he's been not quite good enough in the past.

I'll admit that I am no Muller fan. I recognise that he is a talented driver though. But talented or not, his actions have no place in the BTCC. If the series has to loose him because of this then so be it. Surely the good of the sport/series must be the over-riding issue here.

[Nikki P]

Originally posted by Frank Rizzo
I'm sure it's not, but just in case that is aimed at me, the word used in both occasions was b*oody. Hardly foul. And racist? perhaps you didn't notice the lol and ;) behind the comment. But of course I'm sure that it wasn't aimed at me and that justifying myself is totally unneccessary.

I have a feeling it may have been me who upset Bramble with regards to the racist comment as it's my post that has been modified by the moderators. If it is, can I appologise to Bramble and anyone else who may have been offended by my comment, it was most certainly not my intention to do so. It was just meant to be a tongue in cheek comment (along the line of other people's) which I didn't think was racist although I can see how it could have been viewed as such. I hope I have not jepardised my place on here.

Many appologies.

[Nikh_mg]

A couple of things....
1. If it was off track assault that Muller commited so he shouldnt get deducted points...why dont they haul his a$$ off to prison? lol, that would be intersting (by the way for all the stuck up people, i am joking)

2. Anything is seen as racist now, we aint allowed to sing baa baa black sheep, it all stupid, now we aint allowed to insult a nation, purlease!!! And it seems to be taken as racism if we insult Muller, wtf? we insult him for good reasons!

[Mat C]

I'm sorry but have i missed out on something here ?? The last time i looked, Yvan Muller was a white man from Europe or to be more specific, France. So what's all this talk about racism ? People, before you go using a term i suggest you research into the meaning of it. Yvan comes from the same race of people as most of us, he's just from a different country and speaks a different language. Now if he was black or Asian or Hindu and we was making jibes about him, then that's racist. All that i can see that's going on here is the mockery of a French man due to his inappropriate actions. Never heard of an Englishman, Irishman and Scots'man joke or are you going to tell me that that's racist because if that's the case then surely we are racist to ourselves and that cancels out any negative comments to other races of people !!!!!????? ;)

[Croft fan]

It seems like everyone has something to say about the issue, and it seems like there are not many people out there like Muller, could this be because he is the only driver to challenge for the title and nearly win against the British champions of the last two years?
Muller has shown time and time again that he can beat the best from aroung the world. I have always seen alot of support for Muller aroung the race tracks of Britian, it just seems now that he is getting stick. Sure he was wrong to do what he did, but does that make him a bad racing driver??
Anyone remember James Thompsons move on Plato at Olton Park in 1999, afterwards he stood there and said "I dont know what happened, I just dont know" with the biggest smile on his face, what an ar*e he looked and a compete fool. And Reid is no angel either. But we all still like them and respect them as drivers. You can not judge someone from one incerdent.
I think Muller will leave the BTCC at the end of the year, and have said so before. Hope its not to the ETCC, as the championship is crap.
Muller deserves the title, and one fight wont change what he has done on track. And as for the booing, whatever floats your boat.

[bramble]

Ok, I think that perhaps my post didn't quite reflect what i was trying to say.

I havent been offended by any of the comments on here, however i feel that peoples emotions do not need to be emphasised by bad language - there are plenty of other words to choose from!

Likewise - I dont mind jokes about Irishmen, Frenchmen etc, but when they are used in what seems like an angry post 'slagging off' a driver, I hope you can understand it did look a little rude.

I didn't mean to cause any trouble! :)

[Nikh_mg]

Dont worry there bin plenty of trouble this week, yours will go unnoticed lol :p

[The Stig]

Moderator, please intervene and archive this thread.
We have all had our say - this has been the longest thread in
months, anybody who is anybody has voiced a worthwhile opinion. We're nearly half way to Donington and can't change what has happened. Let's all look forward not back. What a pity the championship isn't closer.

[Mocko]

Time to put my two bits in this topic.

I am absolutely outraged that this happened and especially after Muller went for some afters in pushing Reid into a bonnet. I'd be happy if Reid and Muller resolved their dispute but it won't have much impact on me after:

- Forcing Cleland into retirement
- Forcing Plato off the BTCC
- Forcing Thommo off the track
- Forcing Reid onto a bonnet

Now this has all the hallmarks of a whining git and I don't have the patience for that and my view of Muller has deteriorated to hatred and I have no respect for him as a driver.

Rizzo: I'd rather have positive publicity for the BTCC rather than negative BTCC. However, yeah, the BTCC name is there.

Thommo better be making an effort in the last four races.

[Moderator 1]

I am closing this thread. I think everyone has had their say and now we are going off topic.