Menu may return

[Claw]

What fantastic news this is! A real legend of the BTCC, and I really hope he comes back next year.

Fantastic even though he says "Maybe", but it's better than a "no". :D

Hope he returns and kicks drivers like TC and CT into touch and shows them what great drivers can do. :p

[V6.]

I was saying maybee, not him, though he definately said DTM or BTCC, nothing else, so there is hope.
Sorry for the misunderstanding

[Amanda]

It would be good for the series to get some big name drivers back. Fingers crossed JP returns as well!

[Peter]

That would be fantastic news for the series. Fingers crossed he does so. Guess it would be with Vauxhall.

[Les]

and now Gow is hinting that Rydell might return as well.

As long as they are extra to this years crop of drivers not instead ofs.

[Claw]

I don't care if they're instead ofs. We need some classy, foriegn drivers! :D

[Croft fan]

Well said Claw, we need more forign driver to stop the BTCC from becoming a national serise where there are only national drivers.
Would be good to see them both back.


That would be fantastic news for the series. Fingers crossed he does so. Guess it would be with Vauxhall

Peter who are you talking about here. If it is Plato he has a contract for Seat. I would imagine you are talking about Rydell or Menu. It would make sense for them as Vauxhall are still the best team. Although I think it will be close next year with Honda and Mg as well.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Croft fan
Well said Claw, we need more forign driver to stop the BTCC from becoming a national serise where there are only national drivers.
Would be good to see them both back.


That would be fantastic news for the series. Fingers crossed he does so. Guess it would be with Vauxhall

Peter who are you talking about here. If it is Plato he has a contract for Seat. I would imagine you are talking about Rydell or Menu. It would make sense for them as Vauxhall are still the best team. Although I think it will be close next year with Honda and Mg as well.

I was talking in reference to Menu, who drives for Opel.

[Bill]

Originally posted by Les
and now Gow is hinting that Rydell might return as well.

As long as they are extra to this years crop of drivers not instead ofs.

That's all very well, but let's face it: the quality of driver in the BTCC is far lower now than it has been. Top drivers with international recognition are both good for the championship and also the drivers they compete against - or at least, for those that do.

A return of these two will really sort the new drivers of quality from the no-hopers and nearly men, and this is really needed.

Despite the fact that it seems that more British drivers are getting better opportunities than 5 years ago, I can't name one driver that has gone on to (kind of) better thngs: sportscars etc. Pinnacle of british motorsport it may be, but if that pinnacle is not as high as it ought to be, it's doing nobody any favours at all.

[Alan]

Bill - how about Andy Priaulx and Kelvin Burt? One in ETCC the other FIA GT.

I guess it depends on where you expect the drivers to go really.

I don't really agree that the drivers are not as good as they used to be - you really cannot say that about the likes of Muller, Thompson and Neal to mention but three. And they haven't even done Le Mans (Leslie and Reid etc) - and you don't get much higher in sportscars than that!

[VkmSpouge]

I would love to see Rydell, Menu and Plato return to the series (where would they all fit in :)) having those three big names (plus the big names in series already) would give the BTCC a huge boost.

[Croft fan]

I don't really agree that the drivers are not as good as they used to be - you really cannot say that about the likes of Muller, Thompson and Neal to mention but three. Quote from Alan.

How true, were these three drivers not around winning races when the BTCC was at its height of super touring days of the mid to late 90's?
I like having lots of British drivers in the championship, some good home grown talent is always good, but the internationaly recongonised drivers do seem to make it mean more to the driver who finishes first. For example JC wining in 95 won it against the top from around Europe. The last few years it seems as if it is just British drivers aginst one French man (One very good French Man I give you) but afew old very regonised driver would just add the last touch to an already great series.
Heres hoping for afew more European drivers so the British driver can prove themselves against the best in Europe maybe the world if the championship gets to its former glory.

[Bill]

Originally posted by Alan
how about Andy Priaulx and Kelvin Burt? One in ETCC the other FIA GT.

OK, I have to admit that I forgot about Priaulx, yet I think that his move to BMW was in part thanks to his impressive performances in other formulae in addition. As for Kelvin Burt, sure - he is in FIA GT but only really due to him being able to ressurect his career in the british GTs, which is really little more than a club series, but point taken anyway.

As for the other drivers mentioned - yes I agree that they are top drivers, but the've been around for ages, and all raced in the supertouring era. The point I was making is that whereas five years ago you had these drivers - the cream of the british talent (and Yvan Muller) against other top international stars. My point is that now the international stars have been replaced with club racers. Certainly, Reid and Muller etc. are as good as many of the best drivers of 5 years ago, but simply that the average level of quality is weaker.

[Peter]

I think the current drivers are very quick, but as the majority of them are very young they are not so well known. These young drivers would also boost their status if they can go out and beat guys like Rydell and Menu.
\
On the other hand, foreign drivers do not always bring talent, as Proton will embarrasingly show us next year....

[KPC]

Can you honestly say Reid's standard of driving these days puts him on the par he once had? Possibly he is pushing hard to get a basically second div car to deliver the goods but both he and Hughes have been outshined by their rookie team mate. This brings me on to the next point that the "clubby" drivers we have these days are sub-standard compared to the old supertouring international superstars. I don't think a name has any bearing on your actual racing, moreover for publicity - big shiny glitzy purposes like in F1. Menu and Winkelhock are non-entities in the DTM, as Leslie has been in the Proton, because the car's are not the current best in the field. Put Menu in the Proton next year and he won't be a championship contender. Yet we have O'Neill and Turkington, among others, who have a better drive and have shown they can deliver the goods. These are our future champions. I think the last few years especially have shown that it's the car more than the driver that makes a winner. It is a little unfair to say a driver is junior league purely because they have not been around for years and have not benefitted from fame from the days when series were more high profile.

I'd rather see a Turkington or an O'Neill race than a Reid at the moment. Take Matt Neal, homegrown hero, not particularly well known abroad because of his indy background. Now he is a works driver he is delivering the goods big time. Getting a bit old (actually I think he's a few months younger than me!) but if time is on his side he may yet be an international star of the future like Menu or Rydell?

[Peter]

Originally posted by KPC
Can you honestly say Reid's standard of driving these days puts him on the par he once had?

You can't really compare him to his Nissan days, as he had the best car on the grid then. Would you have posted a similar comment following his unfruitful 1999 season?


Possibly he is pushing hard to get a basically second div car to deliver the goods but both he and Hughes have been outshined by their rookie team mate.

How exactly has he been outshone? He won as many races as Colin and was the highest scoring MG driver. Were it not for three successive poor pit stops in as many races at the end of the season, he would have had three podiums.


This brings me on to the next point that the "clubby" drivers we have these days are sub-standard compared to the old supertouring international superstars. I don't think a name has any bearing on your actual racing, moreover for publicity - big shiny glitzy purposes like in F1. Menu and Winkelhock are non-entities in the DTM, as Leslie has been in the Proton, because the car's are not the current best in the field.

Leslie had lots of podiums in the 2002 Proton and the car was still substantially slower than the the big three- that is due primarily to his experience. Menu and Winkelhock, on the other hand, are beginning to show their age- the Opel is not a bad car as Peter Dumbreck has been highly impressive.


It is a little unfair to say a driver is junior league purely because they have not been around for years and have not benefitted from fame from the days when series were more high profile.

I don't think experience has much to do with how we class a driver. It is more a case of where they have raced previously and whom they have raced against. e.g. Reid beat Jacques Villeneuve and Rickard Rydell to a Formula Nippon championship. However, if a "junior league" driver impresses when he joins the BTCC, he will soon shed that reputation, as James Thompson did.



I'd rather see a Turkington or an O'Neill race than a Reid at the moment. Take Matt Neal, homegrown hero, not particularly well known abroad because of his indy background. Now he is a works driver he is delivering the goods big time. Getting a bit old (actually I think he's a few months younger than me!) but if time is on his side he may yet be an international star of the future like Menu or Rydell?

Rather ironic that you should use the example of O'Neill and Reid considering the fact that Reid finished 4th in the 2002 championship, yet O'Neill was only 8th- beaten by David Leslie's Proton. Yes, O'Neill has improved a lot this season and has been faster than Thompson and Muller on occassion, but it the skills required to go that bit further and actually be a likely consistent challenge for the championship are what earn a strong international and established reputation.

[Claw]

Reid's a legend and we need more like him. He's exciting too watch, and give him the best car and watch him fly. Look at 98, he was the class act of that year IMO.

[KPC]

Originally posted by Peter
You can't really compare him to his Nissan days, as he had the best car on the grid then. Would you have posted a similar comment following his unfruitful 1999 season?

This goes back to what I was saying about car V driver. The Nissan didn't actually become the best car on the grid until 1999 in my opinion as Aillo and Leslie proved. Had Reid the best car with his status he should then by definition have been champion. You comment that maybe Menu and Winkelhock are getting old.... then surely the same can be said of Reid. Don't get me wrong, I've always been a Reid supporter, but there are hints of desperation in his driving standards these days... a bit too bump and bore for my liking. Turkington and Hughes are tough campaigners but do it a little more cleanly.... well Hughes is becoming a little tarnished perhaps. At the end of the day it's down to the thrill of spectating that provides us with the goodies and baddies, dull and edge of the seat racing, and quite honestly the newblood do it for me.

How exactly has he been outshone? He won as many races as Colin and was the highest scoring MG driver. Were it not for three successive poor pit stops in as many races at the end of the season, he would have had three podiums.

See above. He may be consistent but his edge is a little dulled these days.... mind I grant you he is a brilliant late breaker.


Leslie had lots of podiums in the 2002 Proton and the car was still substantially slower than the the big three- that is due primarily to his experience. Menu and Winkelhock, on the other hand, are beginning to show their age- the Opel is not a bad car as Peter Dumbreck has been highly impressive.

Leslie had a couple of podiums and at least one was because of attrition elsewhere in the field. The Proton seems to have been a stronger car in 2002 than in 2003. Leslie is probably old enough to father Menu so does the age arguement hold up? Would Soper have been a contender in 2001 if in an Astra? why do some drivers lose their edge, it would make an interesting thread. Perhaps as we've seen with Thommo over the years, he has ups and he has downs.


I don't think experience has much to do with how we class a driver. It is more a case of where they have raced previously and whom they have raced against. e.g. Reid beat Jacques Villeneuve and Rickard Rydell to a Formula Nippon championship. However, if a "junior league" driver impresses when he joins the BTCC, he will soon shed that reputation, as James Thompson did.

Many who watch the BTCC don't get access to other series, or plain aren't interested. If it's not F1, your average bod in the street probably couldn't tell you what the DTM was. To most of the people I know who are interested to whatever degree in the BTCC, the first they ever heard of say, Reid, was when he turned up in the series in 97. Past glories mean nothing to them. You could be right, could be wrong, who knows?


Rather ironic that you should use the example of O'Neill and Reid considering the fact that Reid finished 4th in the 2002 championship, yet O'Neill was only 8th- beaten by David Leslie's Proton. Yes, O'Neill has improved a lot this season and has been faster than Thompson and Muller on occassion, but it the skills required to go that bit further and actually be a likely consistent challenge for the championship are what earn a strong international and established reputation.

The fact remains simple. I enjoy watching O'Neill race more than I do Reid. In fact, like in many motorsports, the really intersting battles occur from 3rd to mid-rear field. Nothing more boring than a lights to flag dash...

[Claw]

Originally posted by KPC
The fact remains simple. I enjoy watching O'Neill race more than I do Reid.

Thanks you've made my day. That's the funniest thing i've heard in ages. :)

Has O'Neill got a driving style? It's bit boring watching him, as Reid has an aggresive style and really rings the neck of any car he's driven.

[KPC]

Hey lighten up people... don't be scared of change. O'Neill has a number 4 on his car next year and Reid a 5..... what do yer think about that then? The car is it....?

[KPC]

Right, got to go, been good chatting.... a bit more umph than some forums.....

O'Neill may one day be champ? An 8 and a 4 on your door in two years of touring class is impressive, whatever the competition and VX haven't had it all their way this year. Turkington has a chance and I think Boardman was robbed of a touring drive, even if rear wheel drive wasn't for him. But I'm not all for the newblood..... all three MGs separated Neal and Morrison from Chilton.

That's a point, I was wrong in my above reply... O'Neill 4, Reid 6 isn't it?

Paula Cook fan indeed.
;)

[Freddie]

How can anyone say that we lack the calibre of driver in the BTCC that we used to have? Just because a driver doesn't have a British passport doesn't make him a better driver. Muller was outstanding this year but then he was driving the best car. If Owy can win in it, it must be good.
You say that they must be tested against the best of the world. Ok. Le Mans 2002 MG Lola team included Reid and Hughes who took a prototype round the track as fast as the Audi's. In fact I think I remember a top 5 place on the grid. So anyone who could live with them on the track must have some talent.
Someone mentioned Colin T as an upencoming star. He could live with them so maybe that proves the drivers on the grid of a typical BTCC are capable of taking on and beating the best in the world.
It would be interesting to see, eg. a Clio, Seat Cupra, etc race (level playing field) with the drivers all in identical machinery. See who comes out top then.
I think we should stop slagging off the current crop of drivers as we can't be sure that they wouldn't have wiped the floor with the "old guns" in their heyday.

[KPC]

Some good points.

When Reid, Menu, Muller, Rydell, etc, etc, etc, first turned up they were new boys and to the larger extent, an unknown quantity. Now they are "legends" apparently, or Reid is according to an above post, but quite how that is the case is beyond me. So what's changed? Skill, car, age? On the face of it very little. Your O'Neill's and Turkington's are winning races, no mean feat regardless of the car, especially when you have experienced drivers in the field. They deserve respect for that. In 5 years time they will be the so-called legends that Reid and ilk are today. If the new boys are thought of so poorly, surely the same attitude was extended towards Reid and co when they first came along. Narrow minded view in my opinion. The racing is all that counts, who cares what name is in the window.

Now, before I go upsetting the **** I would say that I've always been a fan of Reid and would have liked to see him win the 2000 title. But that is not to say that his driving style is a little erratic. Many a times he has gone for mission impossible moves and the fine line between close racing and demolition derby is often crossed. Let's not forget that it's not only Muller that swung for him, Rydell had similar sentiments after a collision at the very same corner in 98.

[KPC]

**** above is A-R-S-E by the way.....

[touringlegend]

KPC - you are the same guy that thinks Phil Bennett is useless - yet in his very first year of Touring Cars, in the Astra he finished 4th and took three wins - more than O'Neill has managed in two seasons if I remember correctly ?


Paul O'Neill is a good driver, but I'm afraid to see in my eyes he will never be champion. He spends too much time pussy footing around to be honest. To see a future champion you have to look at Colin Turkington - a guy that has that edge and the confidence to perform moves others wouldn't (can't ?)

[KPC]

Before we go any further I have not said Bennett is useless..... I just consider has has had a very poor season and I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise. Watch the reviews impartially. If he gets a better drive next year I wish him all the very best and would like to see him, as all drivers, do well. But I am not swayed by any sense of love or hate towards a particular driver.... I see what I see, down the middle.

Now Bennett came 4th in 2001 and again, good luck to the bloke. But look at the competition. Again you have to put it into perspective. Had I been Plato I would not have been happy with my title.... half a dozen cars on the grid with only Vauxhall having developed the car to any degree. The upshot was a runaway victory for Vauxhall, which boringly carried on well into 2002 and to a degree into 2003... and I've always driven Vauxhall's and always will I hope... I am without a doubt in the Vauxhall camp. But Vauxhall supremacy does not make for interesting racing and in 2001 there were only three real contenders for the title, Plato, Muller and Thommo. Perhaps understandably Bennett came right where you would expect, in the top 4 owing to the Astra but at the bottom of the Astra driver standings. Plato did not battle a dozen players to the title, he battled Muller and Thommo. He also binned it big time at Brands in the decider (which was probably where I was the coldest I've ever been in my years, as anyone there will remember) and Muller would have walked away with the title had his engine not caught alight. Muller's victory this year must be all the more sweet for being a true victory.

[KPC]

...... so to continue... at work... things to do.....

Yes Bennett had three wins in 2001 as opposed to one win a year for O'Neill. But the grid was about twice, or even three times bigger, this year and the calibre of driver much more challenging. So, had Bennett beeen in the Astra this year, would he have had three wins? We will never know.

Let's face it, even Soper (who I've never really cared for but he can drive) couldn't get a podium, let alone a win. The Alfas looked pretty but that was about it and credit to Harvey he got a podium and the IS200 had potential. What Bennett and Soper were up to all year I don't know but Bennett eventually got his knuckles wrapped and couldn't pay the fine so missed Oulton Park. Priaulx showed us how easy the Astra was to drive... hell, even us lot could probably stick up the front end of the field. So 2001 I'm affraid doesn't actually stand up as an indicator of driver ability, it was purely a developmental year.

My attitude to Bennett, to put the record straight, and it is only an opinion, I have never said I'm right about anything, is that he had an under-developed car. Okay, thrash the thing if you get results, but if not just be content to give a mature drive and bring the thing home mid to rear field, as Leslie did. Desperation I think took hold of Bennett, perhaps because he'd had glory days in the past and/or wanted to shine rather than be a backmarker non-entity, which is not helpful I imagine in the ever increasing battle to secure sponosrship and a drive. Bennett got noticed, but for the wrong reasons.

[KPC]

PS - Did Bennett really get three wins in 2001? don't remember that. Silverstone, yep, but don't remeber any others.... anyone care to enlighten me without the need to go searching/viewing?

[John]

Silverstone Donny and Brands

that was easy! :confused:

[KPC]

And I was at Brands. God, must be getting old:mad: